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Where was 4e headed before it was canned?
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7800473" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>The symmetry of 4e resource suites, which is not identical to but is fairly closely connected to the long rest return of hit points as well as the rather abstract short rest mechanic, is something that I am a big fan of in the context of that game. For me, it dissolves what has otherwise been a recurring issue in party-based FRPGs, of tensions and imbalances resulting from differing resource suites, differing resource expenditures, and differing abilities to go nova which lead to differing abilities to impact the fiction.</p><p></p><p>This is in a context where I have never been a fan of B/X-style strategic resource management of the (roughly and I hope non-pejoratively speaking) wargame sort; and hence have never run or played games where that looms large. But I've played systems (AD&D, Rolemaster) where the recovery rules are legacies of the classic D&D set-up (fighters are on a healing recovery clock; MUs are on a spells- or spell-points-per-day recovery clock) and it causes headaches that are needless in the sense they're contributing nothing to the game.</p><p></p><p>This set-up of resources also strongly supports scene-based pacing (which is a part of 4e I really enjoy), with the long rest dynamic overlyaing a longer (but in my approach non-strategic) pacing arc which also creates opportunities for GM taunting of players (when they start looking for rest opportunities just because they're a few surges or dailies down!). The rally narrative is part of that, and is part of why I consider 4e the culmination of the various abstract resolution systems that have been part of D&D from its inception.</p><p></p><p>Of other games I'm currently playing some have almost no resource management (Prince Valiant, MHRP/Cortex+ Heroic, Cthulhu Dark) or very different resource management from 4e, in the context of games that emphasise a very different approach to framing and to pacing (Classic Traveller, Burning Wheel). BW has so many baroque and interweaving resource and related expenditure and recovery systems that I won't try and say anything more about it in this post. But Classic Traveller has a strong emphasis on strategic resource management with money as that resource. In our game it is moslty the player of the starshp owner who is playing that game. It creates interparty dynamics (as he collects fees for service from, or pays crew salaries to , other PCs) but doesn't create the sorts of issues I've experienced in the classic FRPG set-up because (i) there isn't really any such thing as "nova-ing" your money, and (ii) the starship in many ways plays as a whole-group asset even though care of and responsibility for it is in the hands of one PC.</p><p></p><p>I agree with you about the flexibility of narrative-vis-a-vis-mechanics in 4e. At least in my game this is further supported by PC design: eg the system has encourage the fighter to specialise to some degree, in his case in polearms and forced movement, and that means that when he pulls out CaGI it is just another example of him wrongfooting his opponents(s) and attacking all of them around him. At the table CaGI it is a distinctive rsources that he deploys (roughly) once per encounter; but as the fiction plays out there is no metronomyic quality to its resolution (contrary to some online criticisms that to me at least seemed not well-grounded in play experience).</p><p></p><p>Of the other systems I've mentioned in this post MHRP/Cortex+ also supports a pretty high degree of this sort of flexibility. For instance, as per the published example of play for MHRP, Wolverine's player can include his claw die in an attempt to cause goons to flee (pool = the standard affiliation and distinction dice plus claws, Menace Master (a skill die) and a bonus die for the Fearsome SFX) just as the claw die might be included in an atempt to cut someone down (pool = the standard affiliation and distinction dice plus claws, Combat Master (a different skill die) and a die for the Enhanced Strength power). In MHRP that will feed through to different sorts of stress (emotional vs physical) but that in turn is primarily flavour with a hint of fictional positioning. (Not too different from psychic vs untyped damage in 4e.)</p><p></p><p>Burning Wheel, Traveller and even Prince Valiant have a much tighter nexus between mechanics and narrative than either 4e or Cortex+ Heroic That's part of what gives the first two a grittier feel. Prince Valiant I see as something of a stand-out (although The Dying Earth also has some similiarities though very different resource management) in having a long fairly "simulationist" skill list and allied approach to PC build, but much more light-hearted and "open ended" resolution. But that's because Greg Stafford is a genius!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7800473, member: 42582"] The symmetry of 4e resource suites, which is not identical to but is fairly closely connected to the long rest return of hit points as well as the rather abstract short rest mechanic, is something that I am a big fan of in the context of that game. For me, it dissolves what has otherwise been a recurring issue in party-based FRPGs, of tensions and imbalances resulting from differing resource suites, differing resource expenditures, and differing abilities to go nova which lead to differing abilities to impact the fiction. This is in a context where I have never been a fan of B/X-style strategic resource management of the (roughly and I hope non-pejoratively speaking) wargame sort; and hence have never run or played games where that looms large. But I've played systems (AD&D, Rolemaster) where the recovery rules are legacies of the classic D&D set-up (fighters are on a healing recovery clock; MUs are on a spells- or spell-points-per-day recovery clock) and it causes headaches that are needless in the sense they're contributing nothing to the game. This set-up of resources also strongly supports scene-based pacing (which is a part of 4e I really enjoy), with the long rest dynamic overlyaing a longer (but in my approach non-strategic) pacing arc which also creates opportunities for GM taunting of players (when they start looking for rest opportunities just because they're a few surges or dailies down!). The rally narrative is part of that, and is part of why I consider 4e the culmination of the various abstract resolution systems that have been part of D&D from its inception. Of other games I'm currently playing some have almost no resource management (Prince Valiant, MHRP/Cortex+ Heroic, Cthulhu Dark) or very different resource management from 4e, in the context of games that emphasise a very different approach to framing and to pacing (Classic Traveller, Burning Wheel). BW has so many baroque and interweaving resource and related expenditure and recovery systems that I won't try and say anything more about it in this post. But Classic Traveller has a strong emphasis on strategic resource management with money as that resource. In our game it is moslty the player of the starshp owner who is playing that game. It creates interparty dynamics (as he collects fees for service from, or pays crew salaries to , other PCs) but doesn't create the sorts of issues I've experienced in the classic FRPG set-up because (i) there isn't really any such thing as "nova-ing" your money, and (ii) the starship in many ways plays as a whole-group asset even though care of and responsibility for it is in the hands of one PC. I agree with you about the flexibility of narrative-vis-a-vis-mechanics in 4e. At least in my game this is further supported by PC design: eg the system has encourage the fighter to specialise to some degree, in his case in polearms and forced movement, and that means that when he pulls out CaGI it is just another example of him wrongfooting his opponents(s) and attacking all of them around him. At the table CaGI it is a distinctive rsources that he deploys (roughly) once per encounter; but as the fiction plays out there is no metronomyic quality to its resolution (contrary to some online criticisms that to me at least seemed not well-grounded in play experience). Of the other systems I've mentioned in this post MHRP/Cortex+ also supports a pretty high degree of this sort of flexibility. For instance, as per the published example of play for MHRP, Wolverine's player can include his claw die in an attempt to cause goons to flee (pool = the standard affiliation and distinction dice plus claws, Menace Master (a skill die) and a bonus die for the Fearsome SFX) just as the claw die might be included in an atempt to cut someone down (pool = the standard affiliation and distinction dice plus claws, Combat Master (a different skill die) and a die for the Enhanced Strength power). In MHRP that will feed through to different sorts of stress (emotional vs physical) but that in turn is primarily flavour with a hint of fictional positioning. (Not too different from psychic vs untyped damage in 4e.) Burning Wheel, Traveller and even Prince Valiant have a much tighter nexus between mechanics and narrative than either 4e or Cortex+ Heroic That's part of what gives the first two a grittier feel. Prince Valiant I see as something of a stand-out (although The Dying Earth also has some similiarities though very different resource management) in having a long fairly "simulationist" skill list and allied approach to PC build, but much more light-hearted and "open ended" resolution. But that's because Greg Stafford is a genius! [/QUOTE]
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