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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 4694674" data-attributes="member: 4937">Edena: Just to clarify.But as I've shown, a fighter that focuses in mounted archery can do that at 1st level.Four ranks in ride, certainly, but as I've shown, I can get by with 13 Dex, and even that is gravy.    I think here you are confusing the idea of a particular skill, riding a horse, with the qualities that make you an excellent horseman.  Strictly speaking, all I need to ride a horse in D&D is a high ride skill bonus.  Remember, these are the same riders that ride right past the three hunters without seeing them.  There spot skill check is probably pretty good, but it isn't especially good.  Maybe some of the riders have 'Alterness', but it doesn't have to be ubiquitous.Generally, I agree.I sort of agree in as much as I think military training imposes a certain mental discipline, but exactly what form it takes, I'm not sure.  It would be nice if the concentration skill let you do mentally arduous tasks, but I've never figured out exactly what game effect that would have.  Also, I'm inclined to think that what military discipline does can't be quite simulated without importing fear and horror rules into core D&D.I don't agree.  This is just gravy, especially since you've already assumed high dexterity.  He's already got better reflexes than average.  I agree, but only because the Orcs in the books are greatly impressed with the Rohirrim's night vision.  So apparantly, training in fighting in the dark is part of the package for the Riders of Rohan.  However, from the text, part of this seemed to be a particular sensitivity to their horses emotions, that let them use as it were the horses nose and ears almost as well as their own.  Again, I'm not entirely sure how best to implement this.Doesn't need 'Shot on the Run', so doesn't need Expertise.  Under the rules, a horse archer can already move - fire - move, without a feat.Again, gravy.  You've already assigned a high dexterity, so their initiative is already higher than normal.Doesn't need dodge.  He can use his Ride skill to accomplish more dramatic defensive actions.So far, I've used 3 feats - Skill Focus (Ride), Endurance, and Blind-Fighting.  So far, he's just a 1st level fighter.  All he needs now to become a skilled horse archer is Mounted Combat and Mounted Archery.  He can get those as a 3rd level fighter.  Sure, he can load up on other feats to become a better horse archer, but he now has enough to do the job compentently.  Is anything missing?  Maybe, but it's not 12 feats worth of stuff.  If anything, it's skill points, which a fighter is pretty desparately short on.What interests me in these conversations is whether we can say, "Ok, I want to create a Spartan Phalanx, but I want to do it as fighters of 4th level or lower.  Can I do it under the rules or is something missing?"  If you can't do it, it suggests to me that we really do need more feats at low levels.  I'm pretty sure though that it would never be 17.</blockquote>

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