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Message: <blockquote data-quote="atra2" data-source="post: 1619112" data-attributes="member: 10914">Paladin is the weakestIf you think rogues are weak, consider that depending on the campaign,mounted combat might not be around much, so the bonded mount is eithervery powerful (ride-by attack, spirited charge) or you never get to makea charge.Paladins are versatile, like rangers, but still only get 2 skill points a level.Now, if you're fighting foes vulnerable to Smites, things start lookingbetter, but:Consider being barbarian2/fighter8 w/ extra rage feat, so you can rage3 battles a day.Paladins are very attractive from an RP standpoint, but they have noability choices, just like 3e monks.At minimum, a paladin is another plate armor guy w/ power attack, but hastoo many stat demands compared to the fighter or bbn/fighter.He does fill that plate armor w/ lots of HP role well though, and I have seenone person build a paladin w/ 8 wisdom, cranking strength and doingeverything he could to be a melee monster.Bards may not be powerful, but their versatility, like a ranger's, puts thepaladin to shame.Paladin could easily have 4 skill points/level and not be overpowered.I feel the guy who said rogues, but you have to think of them as versatilefirst, and strongly consider the spring attack feat chain so that as a rogue,you do not have to sit there and take the monster's full attack routine if it'stoo dangerous.The 11 classes can be divided into Power and Versatility camps:Power------FighterBarbarianWizardClericDruidSorcerorVersatility---------BardMonkPaladinRangerRogueFighter feats work vs. everything. Barbarian Rage works vs. everything.Paladin smite doesn't work vs. non-evil (animals, aberrations, oozes, etc).Ranger favored enemy doesn't work vs. others.Wiz, Clr, Drd, Sorc can all lay down the smack or change an entire battlefrom total party death to victory with one spell. Bard can sometimes do that,but not reliably.Monk and Rogue require thought, because they are the most versatile andleast powerful, especially at high level. They look nice at low level getting2 flurries a round or an extra 1d6 on their weapon damage, nearly doublingtheir output, but eventually the greatsword power attacking tanks outdothem, and the spellcasters outdo even the tanks pretty often.High-strength monks make expert grapplers and can rule all medium-sizedfoes, even some large ones especially w/ an enlarge person buff.Any monk with max tumble can tumble at full speed, through opponents, toreach the wizard at the back and put him into a grapple he cannot escape.He needs the party to keep the enemy off his back, but now the enemywizard is neutralized.Using a "wimpy versatile character" like the monk to take out the enemy'sbest spellcaster is HUGE. Of course, not all enemies have a caster in theparty...The rogue is an excellent scout and tumble-attacker. The rogue's bestchances come when they win init and sneak attack a flat-footed foe, usingtheir bow (within 30') or when they let the fighters wade in first, andthen maneuver to flank the nearest wounded foe. (or, with enough movement,spring attack into a sneak attack position, whack the foe and return backwhere they started. a single level of barbarian for an otherwise pure rogueis +10' movement and a rage... max UMD is eventually other ways to getfast movement too. If the party wizard just hasted you, you have move 60,and should be able to spring & sneak attack even huge creatures)Rogue the weakest? Well, in set-piece battles, possibly. I've played in aliving greyhawk adventure that was all constructs, another was all undead,etc. On the other hand, I've played in adventures with all monstroushumanoids, and just cleaned their clocks. My rogue 6/fighter1, usingdwarven waraxe and buckler, got in a hastened full attack (two attacks totalat my best BAB) for two rounds vs. a stone giant. missed both times thefirst round, hit twice the 2nd round, for 24 and 17 damage. We rogues lovethat Haste spell...every character build has their weaknesses, it's just that some (like rogue)come up too often when the adventure authors get too enamored ofundead, constructs, etc.</blockquote>

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