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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 9783427" data-attributes="member: 7030563">Why would you take 16 Charisma if you were building for duribility at 1st level?The 2 most important abilities are Dexterity and Constitution.  The next two are Strength and Wisdom.2+ short rests is going to be very unlikely for a 1st level PC before leveling, especially if there are meaningful fights.  1 short rests will be uncommon. 1 short rest is 3 uses of second wind which in play is going to average around 5 hps healed each.  The average roll on the dice is 6.5 but if you have 13 hit points the only way to average is 6.5 healed per use is to wait until you have 1 or 2 hit points remaining to use it.  That is not something that is easy to do in play.So if you break it out by hit points, here is the average healed using 2nd Wind on a 13 hp fighter, based on how many hps you have when you use second wind.hp remaining when you use second wind : average number hp healed12 hps remaining: 1 hp healed11: 2 hp healed10: 2.9 hp healed on average9: 3.7 hp healed on average8: 4.4 hp healed on average7: 5 hp healed on average6: 5.5 hp healed on average5: 5.9 hp healed on average4: 6.2 hp healed on average3: 6.4 hp healed on average2: 6.5 hp healed on average1: 6.5 hp healed on averageSo if we are talking about durability, when you calculate the value of 2nd wind you need to consider when you are going to use that.  If you are going to use it after any hit then that is going to be worth about 4-5 hps on average.  If you are going to wait until a lower threshold then it is worth more but you are accepting a risk that you get killed before you get a chance to use it and you need to consider that chance in any discussion on durability.The Paladin on the other hand has 5hps of healing in LOH and 2 spells slots.LOH does not suffer from this effect because it is a pool of hps, not a pool of uses.  The 5 hps are always worth 5hps unless you get taken down from max before you get a turn (and in that case second wind does not work either).  If you take 1 damage, on the next round you use a bonus action and heal 1 hp and still have 4 remaining.  This means your LOH pool is usually going to be worth more in play than a single use of second Wind.After LOH the Paladin has 2 spell slots.Cure Wounds with an 8 Charisma is going to average 8hps on the dice.  Just talking in terms of hps, the only time 2nd Wind is mathematically more valuable on a 13hp PC is if you have exactly 11 hps remaining when you use it.Finally a Paladin gets LOH plus 2 spell slots no matter how many Short Rests and regardless of if he is damaged between short rests them.</blockquote>

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