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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sejs" data-source="post: 3305440" data-attributes="member: 4910">A rebuttal. The 'King Talker' debate.  A sorcerer can get 3 points ahead on one skill via a familiar.  A bard can match that via a feat (Acquire Familiar) if they so desire, but frankly feats are precious.  A social rogue can match the bard point for point, but has to go out of their way to pump charisma (whereas bards do it naturally) and misses out on other rogue-speciffic areas for doing so.  Essentially a rogue can try to be a bard, but risks missing out on being a rogue for doing so.  Plus Bardic Knowledge can be a big help in the King Talker role.  The Glibness spell is bard only, and bards are the only class that has the skill list to easily rack up all synergy bonii for Diplomacy.As regards your ideas for a fix: how about giving the bard one of those +2/+2 skill feats every so often?  Helps the bard, doesn't pidgeonhole 'em too badly, and maybe those feats will finally see some use.   <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />  Medium BAB and hit dice.  Giving them full BAB would be too much.  Hit dice I'm on the fence about.  If you bump the bard to a d8, what about the rogue?  Or for that matter, the sorcerer and wizard?  Breaking it down some:Medium BAB classes: (core) Bard, Cleric, Druid, Monk, Rogue. (non-core) Warlock, Favored Soul, Spirit Shaman, Marshall, Dragon Shaman, Psychic Warrior, Soulknife, Wilder, Ninja, Scout, Spellthief, Binder, Truenamer.d6 HD classes: (core) Bard, Rogue. (non-core) Warlock, Warmage, Ninja, Spellthief, Shugenja, Beguiler, Wilder, Shadowcaster, Truenamer.Looking at it, there would be a better argument for a d8 hd size than upping it to full BAB.  But again, that'd leave the rogue as the only core d6 class.  They've done some of this via feats, mostly expanding what bardic music can do.  What I'd personally like to see would be bardic music being a pool of abilities (some with pre-reqs) that you can learn from once per X levels.  So Bard A might know Inspire Courage, Inspire Greatness, Inspire Heroics, Ironskin Chant, and Endless March making him a sort of military drummer and Bard B might have Cursed Dance, Requiem, Fascinate, Suggestion, Whirling Steel Waltz, and Ballroom Blitz, instead being a magical dancer that dooms her opponents.Making effects solely Perform DC dependent can be dangerous: it's really easy to make high DC checks after a certain point, as long as you're focused.  I would like to see some sort of complimentary skills rule for the various performs, though.  In my game, for instance, 5 ranks in Balance or Tumble give you a +2 synergy bonus to Perform (Dance) and vice-versa. They are lower level for the bard, but with the caveat that they arrive at approximately the same level that a straight caster would get them.  Bard and Wizard both get access to Confusion at 7th level, Bards and Sorcerers can both get Dominate Person at 10th. As in the past, this is one of the points we agree on.  It's vague and too often forgotten.</blockquote>

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