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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Merlion" data-source="post: 2659738" data-attributes="member: 10397">A basic game involving accasional elements of most things. Well, thats all well and good I suppose. But the rules shouldnt make that uneccesarily diffacult, in either direction. There are, unfortunatitly, some classes for which this is going to be much more diffacult, and even for a good DM its going to be hard to avoid having a class dominate, or tend to get the shaft (if using the rules as written...if as a DM you have to alter a class or whatever to have it be balanced, then obviously there is a problem).For instance, take the Cleric. Roleplaying "restrictions" aside, a Cleric played by someone who knows the rules, once they get past low levels, is going to be very diffacult to challenge. I've seen a number of Cleric players who have spoken of how they always felt safe playing a Cleric, because their defenses were such that they never felt they needed to worry or were threatned by much of anything in the game. On the other hand, if you want to run an Undead heavy campaign and someone really wants to play a Rogue, that person is often going to have a lot of trouble really contributing in combat. This is an important point. Contrary to what many say who seem to think everything in the rules is just fine, just because a class is overpowered doesnt mean everyone is always going to want to play it. And just because people avoid a given class, doesnt mean it isnt overpowered.Like the Cleric for example. Its obviously at the very least among the strongest classes (in truth its *the* strongest class, enough to be considered overpowered), and yet many people do avoid it. But not because its not powerful...usualy because either they dont want to play what they still think of as a "walking band aid", or for roleplaying reasons...I think a lot of people dont really want to play the "priest", conceptually.  This is simply inaccurate. The player obviously makes a difference, but the mechanics are what decide what a character or a class can or cannot do. And some classes have more options than others.  Some of the classes more or less require a clever player to really be good, while others are going to generally be strong more or less no matter what. Roleplaying restrictions do not balance mechanical advantages. I honestly dont see why people freak out about this. So you can find, and get to a bad guy. So what? And scrying can be blocked.[QUOTEKisanji Arael]There are perhaps one or two that are underpowered, but that's it. In general, ranger still needs work, as does straight bard. However, while ranger is a failure even in combinations, I've seen bard combinations that by twentieth level were far out-shining all those around them. Sorc and Wizard are balanced in relation to one another; if one is over-powered, then they both are. I don't think so, though. Cleric hits a niche and that's it. Eh, Druids might be, but I don't think so.</blockquote>Um...Druids might be overpowered, but Clerics "hit a niche" and are fine?Clerics hit a niche all right. Every niche in the game. [QUOTEFireLance]I wonder how much of the cleric's apparent power is due to his ability to cast self-buffs such as divine favor, divine power and righteous might. If almost all the cleric's spellpower had to be used to heal and buff other PCs (which is supposed to be his primary function anyway), would you still consider him to be overpowered?[/QUOTE] Well, the thing about it is, all the Clerics best buffs are self only  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> Truthfully, the Cleric isnt really very good at buffing/enhancing the party. Just themselves. A Bard or a Wizard is better at actually enhancing the rest of the party. Offensively anyway. Now they do have some nice defenses they can cast on others (Spell resistance, Death Ward, Freedom of Movement). But I've never understood why those spells are limited to Clerics and Druids (or just Clerics in the case of Spell Resistance).Now yea theres the healing. But also remember that Clerics have the most daily spell slots of any preperation-based caster. But that isnt the Clerics role. Not if you look at the mechanics. Healing, to an extent yes but not until after combat anyway...and really they arent that good at buffing the party. From about 7th level on, during combat the Cleric is going to help the party more in an offensive role. Early on by self buffing and meleeing, and later as an offensive spellcaster. And then on top of that they can throw out the occasional emergency in combat cure spell as needed.What you suggested would make that more their role however. [QUOTEIamIan]by the way... head to head clearic vs monk.... cleric goes down hard....[/QUOTE] Eh...maybe. The Monk is one of the only classes that has the defenses to get past a Clerics offensive and immobilization spells. However all the Cleric has to do is cast Divine Power and beat the crud out of the Monk.  I agree, except they are too strong in core rules, and additional stuff...mostly all the insanity in Complete Divine, just made it a lot worse.Now I like feats that let you take a given resource and use it in different ways, but some of the Divine feats simply allow things that shouldnt be allowed (like Divine Metamagic and Domain Spontaneity)[/QUOTE]

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