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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 2661743" data-attributes="member: 2011">You must not be playing the same game as the rest of us.Practically none of the Fighters in our games have ever been straight Fighters. Some had a level or so of Barbarian. Some had some spell casting classes in order to give them unique abilities (such as Enlarge or Bulls Strength).I don't know of a player in our game who wants to be taken out with an Evard's Black Tentacles, so all of them have a way out of it (and any other grapple or entangle).In our current game of 10th level characters, we have:a Psion/Shadowmind who can Dimension Doora Druid who can Wild Shape Large (i.e. +4 to grapples plus high bear Strength)a Fighter/Sorcerer/Spell Sword who can Enlarge and do Fist of Stone (Str 18-26, +4 to grapples if Enlarged)a Barbarian/Favored Soul/Bear Warrior who can do Bulls Strength and rage to shape change into a Bear (Str 27-31)Most of these characters would be able to grapple fairly effectively against a same level Monk (and the Psion could just get away), even a grapple oriented Monk. And that's without any Strength enhancing or anti-grapple (e.g. Ring of Freedom of Movement) items (note: we also had a Warmage who died last week, but he would have Still Spelled the Monk into oblivion with Orb spells and/or Fire Shield, doing a lot more damage than the Monk could return).A 16 Strength 10th level Monk with Improved Grapple and a Belt of Giant Strength +4 is +16 to his grapple and does D10+5 damage.Druid as Brown Bear is +18 (she is only 8th level Druid due to being a Drow) and does D8+8.Fighter/Sorcerer/Spell Sword is +12 to +20 depending and does D3+4 to D6+8.Barbarian/Favored Soul/Bear Warrior is +11 to +19 depending and does D8+8 to D8+10.Three same level PCs out of four here who would destroy that same level Monk if they really tried (since they can have better grapples and better grapple damage), who are not designed to be grapplers, and do not have any magical items which really help them in that regard.They also have more hit points on average and would save against a DC 16 to 18 Stunning Fist the majority of the time (60% to 95% depending on which PC and the DC of the Monk) as well.Straight Monks are fairly wimpy and your position that they make good grapplers is totally inaccurate. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f615.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":confused:" title="Confused    :confused:"  data-smilie="5"data-shortname=":confused:" /></blockquote>

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