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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 2670005" data-attributes="member: 3146">I don't see what was so overshadowing about this unless it was used in conjunction with divine power and a host of other spells. It's a good 5th level spell (and was better before the erratta) but didn't, by itself shift the balance of power.Yup. Though that's primarily a problem with the persistent spell feat. There's almost nothing it works on that is not either utterly useless or horrendously broken. (For the latter category, see wraithstrike, persistent)Another key offender. (Though it was the spell itself that was obnoxious not the cleric casting it--IME, it was often the fighter or barbarian begging for it and going through contortions to get a wooden falchion to cast it on).Sure, it's a staple of the battle cleric, but wizards actually do this better. (And psions do it even better than wizards). And, IME, GMW is a staple of everyone who uses weapons--not just clerics and thus doesn't contribute to clerics overshadowing anyone.If this overshadowed the party's rogue then the rogue was incompetent. Since the duration is short and both spells offer insight bonuses (which don't stack), a cleric using this combo will not only underperform a competent rogue, but will not be able to do it for long enough to do a thorough search of anything. I know my 13th level cleric could do this, but even if both spells stacked, he'd still not be as good at finding traps as his 11th level ranger/rogue cohort.  (who is built on 22 points instead of 28).But the duration is the key thing here. It takes a full round action to search a 5' square. If we assume a mid level caster, it will last 8-16 minutes and will give a +4 to +8 bonus to the search check. (Divine insight would boost that to +15 but would be incompatible with take 20). Since most dangerous traps are DC 26+, it's unlikely that a cleric could be sure of success without taking 20. So, at most, one casting of find traps will search two doors (take 20) and a short corridor between them (4 rolls per square in order to have a reasonable chance of finding a trap). Unless your dungeons are very small and your party's enemies are too dumb/unaware to take advantage of the party's slow progress, a skilled rogue is dramatically superior.And they do this better than wizards or sorcerers how? (Inquisition domain perhaps, but then they're not doing the blasting).I've yet to see a cleric outshine other people because of magic vestment. Usually, the spell just results in the entire party sticking to +1 armor with lots of special abilities.This one is unique to clerics, but it hasn't come up a lot in my games....I wouldn't say that commune is overpowered myself--more that contact other plane is a pathetic excuse for a spell. Give contact other plane some teeth and this problem would go away.The fighter I'll buy. but a CASTER?!? Clerics ARE casters. They can't do offensive magic as well as wizard can, but I don't think it's a problem if they can come close. (After all, it wouldn't be very much fun to play a character who couldn't hold his own in a fight, couldn't hold his own in a magic duel, and didn't even have the false comfort of "at least I get good skill points). As for skill monkeys.... what are you smoking man? With the right prestige class, I can see clerics being skill monkeys (but at that point, they're really a shadowbane stalker or church inquisitor not a cleric) but core clerics are not a good substitute for a skill monkey--even with divine insight. One good (though not necessarily extraordinary--by the time divine insight maxes out, 1 rank +15 insight is not enough to be competitive with real skill monkeys in terms of bonuses) skill check per second level slot does not a skill monkey make.</blockquote>

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