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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Merlion" data-source="post: 2672950" data-attributes="member: 10397">Well, I'm glad we cleared that up at least so... Why are we still having this problem then? What I am talking about is entirely relevent to this discussion, and has nothing whatever to do with "house rules".  My "house rule" for Clerics is to remove them entirely and replace them with a different class because I honestly dont really care for them much in general even aside from their imbalances, and they dont fit very well in the kind of settings I run.So what I am discussing is what are some ideas for making Clerics mechanically balanced in the rules as written Nothing to do with house rules at all. But whatever if you dont wish to discuss that part of this conversation thats entirely up to you. I'm not disputing that the Druid is a very powerful...probably slightly overpowered...class. I dispute those who say the Druid is even more powerful and unbalanced than the Cleric, because that isnt the case. Druids mostly just dont need the HP and saves that they get...Clerics have deeper problems. Ok first, I never said that they were not powerful and useful spellcasters. Next, several of the spells you mention arent utility spells, and several more are among those I mentioned that have limitations as to what they can effect and/or where they are effective. All you have to do is look at the spell list, which I have. Please try to b calm...I'm not saying Druids suck or that their spell list is terrible. But it is smaller and more limited than the other 9 level casters...which is why its ok for them to have most of the other things they have. Note I say most, not all. None of the spells you just listed have those limitations...of course, because you picked ones that didnt  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />  But there are quite a few spells on the Druid list that do. Also remember, I dont have an especially high opinion of direct damage overall...and Druids get Finger of Death as an 8th level spell, after mages already have it as 7th level, and Clerics already have Destruction (and have had Slay Living for some time).Again, I never said they arent powerful. I said that unlike what people think about the Cleric, the Druid list actually is more limited than that of say the Wizard. Just like a Cleric doesnt have to be specifically geared toward physical combat to be effective either. Even less so than the Druid in fact. Clerics have full armor prof from level 1, and can cast in it with no restrictions of any kind. Druids require a feat to cast in Wildshape.It is a very useful ability. I think of it more as a disguise/hiding/scouting ability though. It wont..especially in core...let a Druid become a Fighter.</blockquote>

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