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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 2673100" data-attributes="member: 3146">You see, I disagree here. I'd say that the druid is unquestionably and dramatically overpowered and that the cleric is (ignoring rules exploits like persistent spell: divine metamagic which is a problem because persistent spell is a problem in any context it comes up or caster level boosting+holy word or blasphemy which is a problem because the spell was not properly thought out) only mildly overpowered (and that's probably a good thing because the ability to be the party's band-aid is not going to be much of a selling point for the class.You keep talking about limitations on the druid spell list--which are those limited spells again? As far as I can tell, entangle is probably the best example (though it also regularly shows up on the list of overpowered spells) but it's also one of the very few examples. You have to really look through the druid list to find spells that have limitations on where they are effective. As for limitations on what they effect, that's hardly a druid issue. Sure, quench, animal growth, charm animal, and blight are all target-limited. However, so are undeath to death, command undead, halt undead, searing light, protection from evil, and a host of other spells. If the limited spells don't clog up the druid spell list and choke out generally useful spells then they're not a compelling argument for a druid's weakness--they're a way for the druid to be even stronger in their specialized environment. I am being calm. I'm just wondering if you have actually seen a 3.5 druid in play. I know I wouldn't describe the druid's spell list as limited myself. They do have fewer 9th level spells (core rules only--non-core materials eliminate this restriction) than it might be nice for them to have, but I still think you could pretty easily play an old guy with a staff and an animal who does his bidding, tell the party that you're a wizard, fill that role convincingly, and have nothing but druid levels.Sure. Druids get a lot of spells one level off of where clerics or wizards get it. They get poison at 3rd level, for instance, and flame strike at 4th so it goes both ways. The point of my list is that druids have plenty of top-tier nonrestricted spells at every level and a druid could quite comfortably play his entire career without ever preparing or casting a restricted area or target spell. He probably wouldn't because a lot of those restricted spells (like entangle, for instance) are incredible spells for their level and a druid would have a hard time passing up that power (especially when they can just turn them into summonings if they're in the wrong situation). But a druid could.Actually, I think you said that the druid list was more limited than that of the cleric. That's a rather separate contention. (And you'll note that most of the cleric spells you complain about (freedom of movement, death ward) are on the druid list as well). The problem with this contention is that you're wrong. While druids don't get everything on the cleric list (restoration, for instance is conspicuously absent, as is raise dead), they are stronger in other areas (direct damage spells, summoning, etc). I would say the cleric and druid spell lists are broadly comparable.You keep referring to wildshape and armor proficiency like they were comparable. They're not. (Show of hands--how many fighters wouldn't trade heavy armor proficiency for the ability to wildshape? How many clerics? Thought so). Heavy armor proficiency is a defensive ability that allows characters to get a good armor class without a high dexterity. (Characters with light armor can get nearly the same AC but require a good dexterity to do so). Heavy armor does nothing for a character's offense and has a number of serious restrictions (movement, no evasion, armor check penalties) that lead a lot of characters to eschew it even when they are proficient. (I've seen a number of moderate dexterity clerics, for instance, who prefer chain shirts or mithral chain mail to fullplate because they don't plan on getting into melee anyway). Wildshape, on the other hand, is an offensive (it grants special attacks, improved strength, dex, and con, etc), scouting, and mobility ability and at high levels (plant and elemental wildshape) has some very significant defensive capabilities as well (immunity to crits, etc). The two abilities do not fill the same roles nor do they approach remotely similar levels of power. The comparison is apples and oranges.As for the cleric being not having to be geared towards physical combat to be effective in it, you're wrong about that. I've played a number of clerics and they have very different abilities due to how they were designed. A cleric who is going to play the fighter role will have a good starting strength (if your cleric starts with an 8 strength, she can cast all the spells she wants and she'll merely be an adequate fighter if nothing else is available--she won't even be in the same ballpark as a well-designed fighter), good constitution, heavy armor, a good magical weapon, and a feat selection geared towards melee combat. A cleric who can be competitive with fighters will have feats like Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus, and Quicken Spell. (OK, and if you insist: Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Extra Turning, and Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell or Extra Turning, Quicken Spell, and Divine Metamagic: Quicken Spell). A cleric with Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment, Scribe Scroll, and Spell Penetration or Improved Initiative, Spell Penetration, Augment Healing, Extra Turning, and Divine Spellpower will not be competing with the fighters. Domains also make a big difference in a cleric's martial ability. A cleric with knowledge and sun domains or inquisition and purification is not likely to be competing with the fighters. The clerics who compete with fighters have domain combinations like Strength and Destruction or Competition and War.The bottom line is this: if your cleric is not designed to be a combat powerhouse, you can cast all the spells you want and you will still be a merely adequate fighter--not competitive with the real fighters. (And the battle will often be over by the time you're done casting your buffs). If your cleric specifically sacrificed combat ability (8 str, 10 dex, 12 con, and no combat feats or combat focused domains for instance), he won't be a good fighter no matter what you do. If your cleric is designed to be a combat powerhouse, he will compete with fighters unless you're an incompetent designer/player. That's quite possibly a balance issue. But clerics DO have to be specifically geared towards combat to be effective melee combatants instead of people who can contribute as second tier fighters when there is a need.And I don't maintain that it does (though, with specific character design, it can allow a druid to fill a barbarian's role). It does, however, allow any druid--even one who specifically sacrificed melee combat ability in character design--to be a very effective second tier combatant and top shelf special forces (grappling, etc. when advantageous) when the need arises.</blockquote>

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