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<blockquote data-quote="Merlion" data-source="post: 2674795" data-attributes="member: 10397">And none of this takes away from the salient points.A Cleric shouldnt be able to compete with a Fighter at all, really. Nor should a Druid. A Cleric should not have a spell that gives him another classes BAB, especially when BAB is one of the primary features of that class. And when I say competitive, I dont mean equal. I mean competitve. Yes, a very well built fighter made by someone who really knows the numbers will do better than a Cleric who just casts Divine Power. But the Cleric will still be doing better than he has any business doing.I still dont see Wild Shape as a serious balance issue. I think the biggest issue with the two classes together is that they are too durable....they have to few real vulnerabilities. Not just areas of less than expertise...vulnerabilities like low HP or poor Fort or Will saves. I also think the Cleric in particular is likely to steal the thunder of other classes, especialy the Bard, and fighter types...while still maintaining assorted other spell abilities.Also bear in mind that even if the Cleric cant easily become quite as good a Fighter as the Fighter, I think its not at all incorect to say that a party of 4 Clerics...even without being ultra optimized in a given area...would probably do better than most other party combinations (even more so for 3 Clerics and a rogue). Obviously you've had more troubles with Druids than Clerics. I'm not disputing that. I do think that looking at the rules alone, the prize for most overpowered class goes to Cleric. But they both need work. Both in terms of core, and that WOTC needs to stop spitting out broken spells and feats for either of them.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Merlion, post: 2674795, member: 10397"] And none of this takes away from the salient points. A Cleric shouldnt be able to compete with a Fighter at all, really. Nor should a Druid. A Cleric should not have a spell that gives him another classes BAB, especially when BAB is one of the primary features of that class. And when I say competitive, I dont mean equal. I mean competitve. Yes, a very well built fighter made by someone who really knows the numbers will do better than a Cleric who just casts Divine Power. But the Cleric will still be doing better than he has any business doing. I still dont see Wild Shape as a serious balance issue. I think the biggest issue with the two classes together is that they are too durable....they have to few real vulnerabilities. Not just areas of less than expertise...vulnerabilities like low HP or poor Fort or Will saves. I also think the Cleric in particular is likely to steal the thunder of other classes, especialy the Bard, and fighter types...while still maintaining assorted other spell abilities. Also bear in mind that even if the Cleric cant easily become quite as good a Fighter as the Fighter, I think its not at all incorect to say that a party of 4 Clerics...even without being ultra optimized in a given area...would probably do better than most other party combinations (even more so for 3 Clerics and a rogue). Obviously you've had more troubles with Druids than Clerics. I'm not disputing that. I do think that looking at the rules alone, the prize for most overpowered class goes to Cleric. But they both need work. Both in terms of core, and that WOTC needs to stop spitting out broken spells and feats for either of them. [/QUOTE]

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