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<blockquote data-quote="StreamOfTheSky" data-source="post: 2675833" data-attributes="member: 35909">I don't feel like sludging back through to find the post, but back in the thread somewhere, someone said clerics (and druids) don't need good fort. saves and d8 hit die.&nbsp; That's at least mostly untrue.&nbsp; The divine spells, unlike the arcane have a lot to do with getting &quot;up-close and personal&quot;.&nbsp; The fighter needs healing, but that aberration with the sickeningly effective contact poison is over there?&nbsp; Too bad, gotta go up and tap the fighter on the shoulder.&nbsp; In general, clerics have far more touch spells than wizards, and unlike wizards, they can't just use spectral hand (unless they go mystic theurge, which IS broken).&nbsp; The high fort save and hit die, along with armor proficiencies to make up for crappy dex, is necessarry for survival.&nbsp; Also, keep in mind that against reasonably intelligent foes, who's the first target? The guy with the giant sword, or the guy who can make your last three rounds of work on him completely meaningless with one spell.&nbsp; At least in the games I've been in, clerics are targetted just as much as wizards, if not more so.&nbsp; The only point I might agree to is reducing the hit die to d6, but I don't really have a problem with the d8.Also, in regards to &quot;just how much damage can a cleric possibly take from ref. save spells?&quot;, I would have to say more than any amount of hit points could hope to make up for&nbsp; Let's face it, L. bolt and fireball are just 10 times more common than, say phantasmal killer or hold person.&nbsp; Half the encounters we were in my last campaign, the enemy caster would slam the cleric with a flamestrike/fireball etc...&nbsp; He only went into melee half the time, yet he was consistently the one who could barely stand up when the battle was over.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="StreamOfTheSky, post: 2675833, member: 35909"] I don't feel like sludging back through to find the post, but back in the thread somewhere, someone said clerics (and druids) don't need good fort. saves and d8 hit die. That's at least mostly untrue. The divine spells, unlike the arcane have a lot to do with getting "up-close and personal". The fighter needs healing, but that aberration with the sickeningly effective contact poison is over there? Too bad, gotta go up and tap the fighter on the shoulder. In general, clerics have far more touch spells than wizards, and unlike wizards, they can't just use spectral hand (unless they go mystic theurge, which IS broken). The high fort save and hit die, along with armor proficiencies to make up for crappy dex, is necessarry for survival. Also, keep in mind that against reasonably intelligent foes, who's the first target? The guy with the giant sword, or the guy who can make your last three rounds of work on him completely meaningless with one spell. At least in the games I've been in, clerics are targetted just as much as wizards, if not more so. The only point I might agree to is reducing the hit die to d6, but I don't really have a problem with the d8. Also, in regards to "just how much damage can a cleric possibly take from ref. save spells?", I would have to say [B]more than any amount of hit points could hope to make up for[/B] Let's face it, L. bolt and fireball are just 10 times more common than, say phantasmal killer or hold person. Half the encounters we were in my last campaign, the enemy caster would slam the cleric with a flamestrike/fireball etc... He only went into melee half the time, yet he was consistently the one who could barely stand up when the battle was over. [/QUOTE]

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