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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Nonlethal Force" data-source="post: 2664089" data-attributes="member: 35788">This is a bit off topic and I admit it (although it does pertain to bards being weak so not really off topic).The bard is weak if looked at purely on a combat analysis.  The bard isn't great at buffing themselves like the cleric is ... and they can't at least hope to make up for their slowere BAB progression with more attacks like the monk tries (and often fails, but that is another argument many of the posters are already handling well enough!  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />  ).But the bard isn't meant to shine on the battlefield.  Really, they aren't.  The bard is meant to shine in the taverns (making friends, arranging sponsors for quests, getting information, gaining followers and supporters) and they are meant to make others shine on the battlefield.  To play a straight up bard may take a very selfless player ... moreso than any other class.  To play a straight up bard means to be willing to want to make other people look good, knowing that you aren't going to get the credit for it in the long run.  As proof of this point, just look at the votes it gets here.Most people think the bard is weak because they want the bard to stand alone.  And it is not designed to stand alone - or else .. you know what ... it is weaker.  But that is precisely why the PHB says:A 4 person party may be better off without a bard to make sure all the basics are covered (melee, stealth, magic offense, healing/buff).  But once the 4 basics are covered, the bard is a great - no - perfect addition because the bard makes everyone else better at what they do.  A truly selfless character makes the best bard.  Bards that are about themselves are going to eaten alive.......Having said that, what you say about multiclassing may be true.  But multiclassing a bard (not including PrCs for the moment) always makes me wonder if multiclassing with another character wound't be better.  Multiclassing for the spells would be better done with a full arcane (or divine) caster.  Multiclassing for the skills would be better done with a rogue.  Multiclassing for the offense .. is .. well ... just not really making sense in my opinion.Bards are best played straight up (A 20th level bard can do amazing things off the battlefield and on the battlefield can do amazingly wonderful things to his companions) OR taking PrCs that directly enhance their bardic talents.  Most of the examples from the Complete Adventurer work as examples that help the bard in some aspect or another.And, of course, this is just my opinion.  If you would like an example of a truly non-combat bard designed to do nothing other than make sure her allies are as good as it gets, look at Sye Dillinger in my sig.  She's an interesting concept - one that I honestly don't know if she'll work or not, but I am trying her out.  "Combat" weak .. but "combat support" good.Just my opinion.  Good luck with your bard build, morez.</blockquote>

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