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Message: <blockquote data-quote="IamIan" data-source="post: 2665011" data-attributes="member: 37394">Wasn't going to post it here .. but sinse you make it an issue here....My first post about the monk on the too-powerful thread.    as it turns out  divine power magic item would be even cheaper and do the same for the monk....and this item as expensive as it is ... is not expensive at all for a Lv 20 Monk...As I have been saying from the begining.... Both weak low level....Fighter better at mid level....Monk Better at the end....If you are talking about AC... Armor maxes out at Full Plate +5 .... Shield Maxes out at Tower +5 and those are the two things a monk can't get that the fighter can.... +8+5+4+5 = +22 From Items +3 For Mitheral Full Plate +5 brings it up to +25 assumeing fighter dex 16of course as already stated they both get 10 base and both can still also get protection rings and miss chance rings... but this is the AC difference that the fighter gets that the monk doesn't / Can't....The monk is not restricked at his maxes as much as the fighter is.... becuase the Monk can use More Attributes for AC and Becuase it doesn't cap out to a limited amount they can potentially pull ahead of the fighter by the time they can aford to pump into both attributes...16 and 15 for Dex and Wis  Elf Gets +2 to Dex = 18, 15 +5 from 20 Lvs = 23 , 15 +5 From Dex Book and +5 from Wis Book = 28 , 20 +6 Dex and +6 Wisdom Items = 34 , 26 for and AC bonus of +12 , +8 and the monks +4 from the Class = 24 ..... not very high attributes to start with and the monk is 1 point bellow the Best can do with armor and shields... Monk Builds from other races and such can pass up the armor and shield's AC.... and this AC is FAR better than the Armor & Shield type AC becuase it is all... you can't touch this AC.... Touch attacks close or ranged don't negate the bonuses as they do with armor and Shield....as I have said... beginig both suckMid level fighter better becuase it is cheaper to pump one thing such as armor...high level the monk pulls ahead... better type of AC for the same kind and with the right build pass up the fighter in AC... and is allot faster and doesn't have the other negatives of armor.Another Byproduct of the monk being able to use 2 Attributes for AC is that it makes more sense for him to pump both Attributes... this gives the AC above ... but it also stacks with his good saves in all.... a Wis 26 and Dex 34 give a Lv 20 Monk killer Reflex and Will Saves Plus his class bonuses to sertain saves... or switch the attributes and it is more will than reflex but still with good saves in all...also This means that while a Lv20 Monk Probably does have a +6 Str Belt and maybe the +5 Str Book he also can use Weapon Finese for Dex to Unarmed attacks... which means from the Magic Item of Transformation or the Magic Item of divine power the monk has the same +20 / +15 / +10 / +5 Base Attack of the Fighter... He can still use his best attribute to hit with as the fighter uses Str the Monk can use dex .... and the Monk will be doing more damage per round thanks to flurry of blows giving him +20 / +20 / +20 / +15 / +10 / +5 .... and yes the fighter with haste can get +20 / +20 / +15 / +10 / +5 the Monk with Haste can get +20 / +20 /+20 / +20 / +15 / +10 / +5... as stated before Fighter with Str focus and +4 Damage from Feats and posibly 2 handed weapon will do more damage per hit... but the monk gets 2 more hits per round and by Lv 20 they are easily made to be just as accurate as the fighter's to Hit for the first Blow but then the Fighter drops to +15 for second attack the Monk is still at +20 and more likely to hit.... by the 3rd blow the Fighter is down to +10 the Monk still at +20 and much more likely to hit.... by the fourth blow the fighter has his last at +5 the monk drops to +15 and still has 2 more to go...Also Remember the Skills that the Monk Can Benefit from a Dex and Wis that High.... and they are class skills too...The above I have been saying from the begining and the numbers do add up... the fighter can't get better Armor or Shields at Lv 20 they are maxed out.... the Pumping of 2 Attributes catches up to the Armor and Shields in raw number... but passes it in value as touch attacks and such... plus the Skills .. Plus the Saves... plus speed... etc.... etc...by the way +2 Dex can be had with far less sacrifice than the +2 Str... which means the Dex to weapon finese has a great chance of getting higher than the Str to Attack does by high levels... again not at low levels ... or mid levels...Another example of what I had said being taken out of context... the fighter build if done with magic Armor Shields and weapons as said would be... can not get the same str as the monk example and would have even with +3 Base Attack and same feat to grapple would have been about equal in grappling bonus and would have been doing d4+6 Damage in grapple while the monk did d10+9 and the monk has a natural healing at that level the fighter doesn't...  and as said before ... I said the fighter pulls ahead in the mid levels... as for other suck Attributes... if the fighter wants the same 18 STR in that point build his other attributes will be the same as the monks... and if the fighter doesn't have the same 18 STR to Start then the Monk gets even better at grappling him and does proportionally even more damage.low level both suck die just as easy...mid level fighter pulls ahead a little... better AC and +3 to hit...by the end the monk cathes or passes the Fighter in raw AC but has a better type of AC and Catches the Fighter in to hit but passes in number of attacks and damage per round thanks to the greater number of attacks... etc...etc...True... The True Strking Bow for Instance in 3.0 Fighter's and monks book gave a +20 Insight Bonus to hit with the arrows fired from the bow and cost a crazy low amount of money less than 5,000 if i remember correctly ... Wish Spell Rings and Rings of Sustenance Cost Far less than the Formulas...I have given examples... they are then taken out of context and used another way.... and as I have said from the begining one the the things about the monk is that he can specialize in many things... The cleric I feal is weaker becuase it forces multi-tasking and what a Cleric is.To arguements people have made are that there is nothing wrong with playing a cleric any way you want with no reguard to what a cleric is and that multi-tasking and being multi-use is better than specializing... I have said from the begining that multi-taksing can be useful... but it give versatility at the expense of focus... other say the loss of focus is worth far less than what you gian in multi-tasking... that is the point I disagree with ... that and what a cleric is and how people play it.</blockquote>

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