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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Faradon" data-source="post: 2665631" data-attributes="member: 37759">Arcane Casters vs Divine CastersIn the types of games I've played in and run...Arcane casters have really felt underpowered, especially when compared to divine casters.So quickly let's look at the differences at lvl 10 and 20 between a cleric and wizard.Cleric -   10th +7/+2         +7   +3  +7  6 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 Wizard - 10th +5              +3   +3  +7  4 4    4     3    3    2 Cleric -   20th +15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12  6 5+1 5+1 5+1 5+1 5+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 Wizard - 20th +10/+5        +6  +6 +12  4 4    4     4    4    4     4     4    4    4 Clerics have: Double the hit die (D8 vs D4), can wear any armor, use more weapons, turn undead, has the superior base attack bonus, gets access to all cleric spells without having to learn/acquire/pay for them, gets more spells per level (at level 10 it's the difference of just the domain bonus, but at 11+ the cleric actually gets more raw spells per level as well!), oh and let's not forget the domain powers like free weapon focus, or if you choose the magic domain: Use scrolls, wands, and other devices with spell completion or spell trigger activation as a wizard of one-half your cleric level (at least 1st level).  Also, because clerics can spontaneously cast cure spells, this gives them extra versatility in what spells they can choose to prepare, making them better suited to deal with more situations.Wizards have: The hit die of a commonner (d4, 1/2 of what the divine classes get), can not wear armor, supplied with limited weapons, have the worst BAB in the game, get 2 bonus feats by level 10, can scribe scrolls, and can shoot themselves in the foot by taking a familiar.  They receive fewer spells per level than a cleric, must purchase new spells as they go up in levels, get no sort of spontaneous casting to broaden their selection, and even as a specialist caster they get less spells per level than a cleric at levels 11+.Both classes receive the same amount of skill points (though the wizard is likely to have the higher intelligence and get a few more as a result). So, with everything else being as unequal as it is the wizard must have far more powerful spells right?Well... not exactly...  Now I'm not saying wizards don't have *some* spells that really are great... but on the whole... well.. let's compare a couple.5th lvl- Cone of Cold (Wiz) vs Flame Strike (Cleric) 1d6/lvl (15d6 max)                1d6/lvl (15d6 max) Cone shaped all ice               10' rad / fire/divine mixThe cone of cold can potentially hit many more targets, but is harder to target properly while avoiding allies and is all 1 type of damage.The flame strike is easier to target / avoid hitting friends, does the same amount of damage, and half of its damage is divine power (so no resistance).---7th lvl - Finger of Death vs Destruction Fail your save you die from both (can't be rez'd as easily from destruction though)Make your save and finger deals 3d6 (+1/lvl) destruction deals 10d6Both spells have the same range, etc.I tried to choose spells that were relativly similar. I don't think the arcane caster really gets much of an edge if any... Like I said though, wizards do have some other special spells that are pretty good, but pound for pound spell wise I don't think arcane casters pull very far away from their divine counterparts.   Even at 9th lvl... Miracle vs Wish, etc... the differences in spellpower that justified the physical differences in the classes isn't present any longer in 3.x.Are other gaming groups running into this at all? from what I'm reading here everyone is saying wizards are just fine the way they are... and people have even called them overpowered.  If a wizard is overpowered I don't know what to call a cleric other than divine...P.S. I had everything spaced all nicely and easy to read, but the page formatting doesn't seem to like me much.  Sorry.</blockquote>

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