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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 2665797" data-attributes="member: 2011">No, I am not. You are. The Bard buffs stack with the Buffs of others.Stay on topic. Bard versus Rogue.You forget that the other buffs would have been a fine addition, not a substitute.With regard to the 13th level Rogue, how exactly does he do over 100 points of damage per round?1D8 + 7D6 +4 magic weapon +2 Strength = 35 points if he hits, 70 if he criticalsTypically, a 13th level Rogue will not get a second Sneak Attack in during the same round (often, he will not get in any sneak attack). He might max out around 100+ on a very special round (70 for critical sneak attack plus 35 for second critical sneak attack because of magic or something), but that would be very rare.Sure, he could have a bunch of feats/items that allow him to make more attacks per round and possibly even more sneak attacks per round, but still, most of them will not be sneak attacks most combats and most rounds.The other PC combatants will also have feats/items that allow them to make more attacks per round, making Inspire Courage even MORE useful.Same with the Rogue. Many sneak attacks are done via flank. No flankers, fewer sneak attacks.The Bard can summon multiple creatures and inspire them all (in addition to himself).The Rogue cannot summon flankers.Weak argument. If my party consists of a Wizard, the Rogue, a Psion, and a Barbarian, how many flank attacks will the Rogue get without becoming a target and dead?If the Barbarian is the "front line" and protecting the Psion and Wizard from attacks, the Rogue has to go "into the enemy formation" in order to flank with the Barbarian.Btw, in our games, the psions are some of the best fighters around. So in our game, the Bard would be helping the Bard, the Barbarian, AND the psion (plus touch spells of the Wizard plus Summon spells of the Wizard plus Summon spells of the Bard plus Astra Constructs of the Psion).I am not the one making assumptions.It is pure math.+1 to hit plus +1 damage times 2 or 3 or more combatants (including the Bard) most rounds is greater than +1D6 or +2D6 damage occasionally.Out of the core classes, the break down of melee/ranged attacks versus spells is:Barbarian, Monk, Rogue and Fighter (practically 100%)Paladin and Ranger (about 100% at low level, maybe 80%+ at mid to higher level)Cleric, Bard, and Druid (maybe 50%, maybe higher, especially for Bards and Druids)Sorcerer and Wizard (about 0%)So, 6 out of 13 classes are almost exclusively combatant types and 3 out of 13 do it probably half of the time or more. If my percentages here are semi-accurate (and they are probably not that far off) the Bard is helping virtually everyone out in the combat except Sorcerers and Wizards (and he EVEN helps them out for touch spells) and he is doing this almost every round.The Bard effectively raises the overall level of the ENTIRE party with regard to combat by one (or two at higher levels) every combat.The Rogue is targeting one or two NPCs at most with offensive (if he is able) maybe a handful of times within an entire combat.No comparison.Replace the standard Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, Wizard party with a Fighter, Cleric, Bard, Wizard party and the second party typically has a better chance of survival.Not only that, but the Rogue cannot heal anyone. The Rogue cannot go invisible without an item. The Rogue cannot cast Mirror Image (which is real helpful in combat). The Rogue cannot wear as good armor. The Rogue has worse Will saves.The Rogue has one good defense which sometimes comes into play. Evasion.The Rogue has one good offense which sometimes comes into play. Sneak Attack.The Bard has many good defenses and offenses compared to the Rogue.A Rogue needs to get away, you hope he can Hide. In addition to hiding, the Bard could cast Expeditious Retreat or Phantom Steed or Dimension Door. Bye bye.The Rogue hides. The Bard casts Invisibility Sphere and everyone in the group is hidden.The Rogue gets one or two attacks per round until real high level. The Bard can cast Haste at 8th level and get 3 attacks per round (2 at max to hit) and the additional attack for other PCs.At first level, the Bard can Fascinate opponents. The Rogue gets eaten.Like I said, no comparison.</blockquote>

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