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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 2666224" data-attributes="member: 2011">Your maxed out Rogue here took 4 combat feats out of the 5 or 6 feats he has at 13th level. Not many feats left over to qualify for a Prestige Class.You are assuming he hits with his +13/+13/+8/+8. Even with Flank at +2, 13th level opponents with ACs of 26, he will hit about 1/2 of the time with the first two and 1/4 of the time with the last two, or an average of 1.5 sneak attacks per round or 10D6+ extra damage or 37 points of damage more.That's with an AC of 26 (relatively low for 13th level). How about an AC of 31 opponent? He is suddenly down to 0.5 sneak attack or an extra 12 points of damage on average.How about the rounds where the Rogue does not get a full round attack because he has to move to a flanking position? How about the rounds where the Rogue cannot get a flanking position?The Bard helping out a single full round attack 13th level Fighter (let alone the rest of the party) with his +2 to hit and +2 damage results in:The Fighter is +13/+8/+3 BAB, +6 STR (22 Str same as 22 Dex Rogue), +4 item (same as Rogue), +1 Weapon Focus (average damage 16.5 for longsword and weapon specialization).The Fighter is +24/+19/+14.Instead of hitting 95% + 70% + 45% against AC 26 for an average damage of 35, he is now 95% + 80% + 55% against AC 26 for an average damage of 43. One PC out of the group averages 8 more points of damage on full round attacks.Instead of hitting 70% + 45% + 20% against AC 31 for an average damage of 22, he is now 80% + 55% + 30% against AC 31 for an average damage of 31. One PC out of the group again averages 9 more points of damage on full round attacks, even though he is averaging less overall damage because he hits less often than against the AC 26 character.The Rogue does a lot less damage against the higher AC opponent (25 points less). The Bard boosted Fighter does somewhat less (12 points less).The Rogue did 12 more points of damage (due to Sneak Attack) on average against the high AC opponent whereas the Fighter did 9 more points of damage (due to Inspire Courage). Considering that Inspire Courage affects more than just the Fighter, this is not impressive.Now, 8 or 9 points of damage for one other combatant type might not sound like a lot when the maxxed out Rogue might average an extra 37 points of damage. But, the Fighter is not the only one fighting. You might have 3 or 4 PCs in the group doing an extra 6 to 9 points of damage each. And because they get a bonus to hit, they also do this against both low and high AC opponents.Also, this is additional damage beyond what those PCs would normally do. This does not take into account the touch spells that hit that would have missed. It does not take into account the times that the Fighter does a Cleave or Greater Cleave because those few extra points of damage on each attack allowed him to. It does not take into account the threats that became criticals.It does not take into account that the Bard has not yet made an attack.Suppose the Bard does a Dominate Person. His chance of success is probably on par with the Rogue getting multiple Sneak attacks in PLUS the Bard does not have to be in the midst of melee combat to accomplish this.And, what about when they get to 14th level and the Bard's Inspire Courage goes up to +3/+3 (assuming the Bard does not go into a Prestige class)?And with the 4 feats that the Rogue used to get his multiple attacks, the Bard has a lot of options. The Rogue is hard wired into two weapon fighting.The Rogue is a one trick pony. Sure, he can do some serious damage under the right circumstances (low AC opponent, flank, opponent not immune to sneak attacks, full round attack, fighting two weapon). But, doing so, he is also a target. A target with low hit points, low AC, low Will saves, no way to flee, and no way (outside of potions/scrolls) to heal himself.Even well played Rogues die in our games because they are wimpy defensively and offensively have one big attack that often isn't enough to save them.Bards are not vastly better than Rogues (like a Cleric is), but they are slightly better because they are more flexible and versatile.The problem is that people see the big Sneak Attack that succeeds every few rounds and they do not see the Inspire Courage, Cures, Summons, and Invisibility Spheres that keep the entire party alive. This is a game played with a group, not one or two individuals.</blockquote>

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