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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 2666412" data-attributes="member: 2011">Hold Person is fairly weak since it gets a save every round and only affects humanoids. The Hold Person/Coup De Grace strategy is overrated, at least if you have allies to protect you.Again, if the save is failed, great. If the save is made, the Cleric wasted a spell and a round.And again, it is single target. Compare it to Color Spray at low level.Not shabby, but still a single attack per round (until higher level).Melf's Acid Arrow is stronger on average.But not half good either. Scorching Ray is stronger and a level lower. The only advantage here is that Searing Light has medium range, but there are other better Long range and lower level spells like Melf's Acid Arrow.His Reflex saves are typically lower than a Wizard (or at least the high Dex Wizards I play).And armor slows up the Cleric. BAB is at best ONE better at low levels (and if you play a high Dex Wizard using ranged weapons and spells, your to hit is actually better than most Clerics). That is not overwhelming.Clerics have the better Fort and Will saves, but you are comparing what most people consider the BEST class (Cleric) here versus a good class (Wizard). Nobody has as good of Will saves as Clerics and Druids. But, Wizards are second tier (along with Bards, Sorcerers, Monks, and possibly Paladins) and everyone else is third tier.You do not consider all area effect spells multi-target if you target them correctly?How about Acid Fog? Solid Fog? Web? Stinking Cloud? Cloudkill?A Wizard will kill most groups of opponents with Acid (or Solid) Fog followed up by Evard's Black Tentacles.Two spells. Ok, that's a wrap!!! Let's pack up the loot and go home. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> But to get past 6th level, you have to survive.Clerics are good at that with curing. Wizards are good at that by being super defensive and blowing away enemies.At 7th level, the Wizard is casting Evard's Black Tentacles. Except for extremely large powerful creatures, that is a death sentence unless the enemy has spells.Fire Shield often ensures that opponents fight somebody else and minimize grappling attempts.Lesser Globe of Invulnerability protects against the vast majority of the 7th level Cleric's spells.We could go on and on. Both classes have strengths and weaknesses.But, you have yet to illustrate that the single target Cleric spells come anywhere near the amount of devastation of the multi-target (i.e. area effect) spells of the Wizard.Solid Fog (4th) and Cloudkill (5th) cast consecutively can be more devastating than many of these.Project Image (with or without Greater Invisibility) can be used to great effect. I hurt you, you do not hurt me.Transmute Rock to Mud (5th) followed by (auto) Dispel Magic (3rd) is enemy ending. Your Cleric can be buffed up the butt, but even Freedom of Movement will not help much against this tactic unless the Cleric has a way to get out of the mud quickly. Hard to do that if he cannot fly or dimension door or climb due to armor check penalties on his cross class climbing skill.I think you grossly underestimate what Wizards can accomplish, even with lower level spells.</blockquote>

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