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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Merlion" data-source="post: 2666505" data-attributes="member: 10397">Only effecting humanoids is a limitation, but remember a great many main villains in campaigns are likely to be humanoids with class levels. How much of a weakness that is will depend a lot on the game. Its generally not considered a weak spell, that I've ever seen even since it was lowered in power.As for the coup de grace strategy...again it depends. Nothing is an absolute win, but its certainlly a factor. You mean like half the spells in the game?thats why you target weak saves. Colour Spray is area affect, not multi target...it isnt the same thing. And yea its a great spell at low levels. But Bness/Dness never really goes down in usefulness...and mostly I am just making the point that yes, low level wizard spells are generally better in combat than low level wizard spells...but even low level cleric spells are nothing to be sneezed at. Yea. So? it also raises his AC, all the time. This is the tradeoff all armor wearers face, and its really not that much of a tradeoff anyway.  No, but it is better, and overall its much better. Medium BAB can actually hit, over the course of the game. Low BAB basically cant accept touch attacks. LOL...thats exactly the point. Cleric is the BEST class. You've just admiteted/agreed with exactly what I am getting at: Clerics are more powerful than the other classes (somewhat along with Druid) then you have a second tier of more or less balanced classes...then theres everyone else.  They dont "target" at all. The *affect* and *area*. Everyone and everything in the area. No targetting of any kind.Yea, you can get around that somewhat, but its still often a pain to try avoiding your allies. Plus, most of those spells are area effect damage spells, and at mid to high levels damage spells often become largely pointless.Horrid Wilting, for instance, is a multi target spell. And one of the best in the Wizard arsenal. Sure. Unless they have Freedom of Movement. Or unless your allies get in the way before you can. Or unless they have access to Dispel Magic.Evards Black Tentacles is a great spell, just like Freedom of Movement is a great spell.   Clerics are better at it than Wizards because they have twice the HP. And can wear armor (and still cast spells). Its a nice spell, but I really dont see how its a "death sentence" for the majority of enemies. Freedom of Movement, and items thereof is hardly uncommon. And there are plenty of physically large powerful creatures out there. Plus, again, you have to avoid your allies. if the Fighter wants to go Fight, he's not really going to want to deal with your Tentacles as well as the enemy.I dont really think Evard's Black Tentacles simply blows away all of a Clerics 4th level spells, especially considering the other advantages a 7th level Cleric has (twice the HP of the wizard, better AC, better attack bonus, better saves).  No. Wizards have strengths and weaknesses. Clerics...especially beyond the lowest levels..really just have varying degrees of strengths. And no real weaknesses...low reflex saves...woop dee doo they have the HP to manage, plus Resist/Pro Energy and Spell Resistance... I think your greatly overestimating the overall usefulness of area effect damage spells. At low levels they are good. At high levels they can be good against large numbers of comparitively weak enemies IF you as the wizard get to act before your parties meleers are already where you'd be casting the spell. But mostly at mid and high levels magical offense is about save or dies and disability spells. Slay Living, Destruction and Implosion in particular fill this out nicely for the Cleric. Clerics arent about "devastation" of lots of damage and destruction. There about picking off the enemies that matter, and about being almost untouchable themselves.  Can be, sure. Always are? I doubt it. I am not trying to say Clerics are vastly more powerful spellcasters. I am saying they are equally powerful spellcasters, in some different ways, and they then get a bunch of other class benefits, which makes them overpowered. And I think your doing the same with the Cleric spells, and especially with the synergies of the spells with each other, and with the Clerics extreme inherent durability.</blockquote>

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