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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Faradon" data-source="post: 2666522" data-attributes="member: 37759">Better Fort saves. (check)Better Will saves. (check)+1 BAB from levels 2 to 6 (after that, the BAB increase starts becoming irrelevant due to the number of spells available per day). (unless you are trying to hit someone with touch and ranged touch based spells... making the cleric better at it)2 more hit points per level.The ability to wear armor and hence better AC at some levels.Buff spells.Spontaneous Cures. (which give more versatility to what you prepare ahead of time)--- how about more spells per level (yes, even more than a specialist wizard at 11+)--- how about domain powers/spells (without having to spend a feat like you described or having to sacrafice spell schools like a specialist)--- turn undead, and the variety of substitution feats you can buy for it (since you brought up feats)--- clerics don't have to buy/acquire spells--- don't have to carry spellbooks (which can be taken / stolen)--- don't have to spend a month of dowtime when they level up to scribe spells in a book when they finally get the money to buy some spells from a guild or whatnot--- don't have half the spell component requirements that a wizard has (mostly just the holy symbol)What does a Wizard really get over a Cleric?Same or better Reflex saves. (solely based on what stats each character puts where)Area effect spells, not just damaging ones, but entrapping ones as well. (agreed)Single character defensive spells. (this goes for both)Movement, both due to not wearing armor and due to better movement spells. (agreed)Scrolls, the Cleric has to use a feat to acquire scrolls. (to acquire or create?... scrolls are cheap enough to usually buy from the church.. but that's not here nor there)Illusions, Clerics have virtually no illusions whereas that is one of the better ways for a Wizard to stay alive. (if he doesn't lose the school from being a specialist to keep up with some extra spells like you suggested)But, if Wizards were as weak as some people are implying, how come they do not die left and right in PC parties?  (maybe your DM is lenient or fudges die rolls... but we roll out in the open, and especially at low levels, we have lost several arcane casters... more than any other class.. or maybe it's just a hex or bad luck for our casters)No doubt about it. Clerics are more powerful. I think they are the most powerful class in the game, even stronger than Druids. But, they are not overwhelming when it comes to magic. They can adversely affect others, but they tend not to. They tend to augment their allies(and again, never did I say the cleric spell list was overall *better* than the wizard one... I said that the wizard spell list "isn't better enough"  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />  to put him on par with the divine casters in terms of an overall class (druids too)</blockquote>

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