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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ClaytonCross" data-source="post: 7322647" data-attributes="member: 6880599">WOW you totally missed my point and picked one sentence to support yours without taking as part of its context. My points :  1. We build classes and subclass to fill niches so building to a niche is not new or unwelcome.2. The Wizard class could be the only caster class in the game and every other caster a subclass under it... bit its not because people like more variety and depth than a subclass can always provide.3. Summoner is large enough to have its on class So in response to:"very specialized & niche-y. It would be unlike any other class, to an unprecedented degree within 5e. "Sorcerer, Warlock, Bard... Just as specialized and niche-y. I completely disagree that a summoner class is unprecedented in that casters exist in niches already."Well, I didn't mean that it's simply a niche that isn't explored, I mean it's more narrow than D&D classes. It would be like saying, "I want a class that is really, really, really good at archery, and can do all sorts of trick shots, but doesn't do anything else."That might be fine in a game that was intended to have dozens and dozens of classes, but it doesn't feel like D&D."Your arguments are ..."its so unlike anything else" which is reason to have it and its not "not large enough to be its own class" when the Wizard School of Conjuration subclass does not come close to filling the desired niche proving its too large for a subclass.Also "small niche classes": A class designed to fight only with finesse weapons or hand to hand (Monk), A class designed to take damage without armor just because of how tough and how much heath they have (Barbarian)A class about sneaking up on people and stabbing them in the back(rogue)A class that is a wizard but uses "nature magic" (Druid).....Do I really need to go on here? All the abilities of a rogue could be options for every class but it was decided to make in class focusing on the niche. Building classes to fill niches is exactly D&D and always has been. A summoner is no worse than the Artificer (Guy who builds things) or Mystic (Guy who used psychic damage). Again, if your not building a class to fill a niche why are you building it? You could easily build and entire summoner subclasses around skills, combat, and crowd control. Making it wide enough to be a class using its niche. I fail to see the value in your argument "but it doesn't feel like D&D" because first it fits fine with every other niche class ever made and secondly D&D is an evolving game where players and developers are always looking for creative new ways of playing a game that could be only 2 classes with cross classing (Melee Fighter, Magic Caster) and make it different and fun. That means anything that gets " It would be unlike any other class, to an unprecedented degree" is an awesome and meaningful addition and if you don't want to play that class pick a different one. So if your agreement boils down to "No, I don't want it" it doesn't mean much if enough people like me do.</blockquote>

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