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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Empirate" data-source="post: 6092960" data-attributes="member: 78958">I find it telling that 'except for spellcasting', 'bards come on top almost everytime' in your analysis. Spellcasting is the single most powerful mechanic in the game, period. You just told us that Bards may not have what it takes where real power is concerned, but they're runners-up due to secondary benefits. Which was already mentioned anyway.The comparison of BAB, AC, and HP isn't too meaningful IMO.The BAB only  starts to differ appreciably by about level 8 or so - and by then, your  Sorcerer won't worry about hitting anything much (even rays will usually  connect by now), while your Bard will still need to hit stuff  occasionally to contribute.AC is a nonissue from the mid levels up,  as well - if you really want to boost it, get a spell for that (Alter  Self can give you +8 natural armor). Miss chance (Mirror Image or Blink)  is the better way to go, and flying around invisibly is the still  superior one. Also, Twilight Mithral Shirt, if you really want light  armor.HP... yeah, sure, but 1 HP/level isn't much to write home  about. Your Bard should still stay out of melee most of the time.  Sorcerers can get False Life if they want (but it's not that needed  IMO).Sorcerers have 'highly situational' spells? If you don't know which ones to pick, maybe. Quite a few spells have extremely broad application (Alter Self/Polymorph/Shapechange, Summon Monster X, Shadow Conjuration/Evocation, XYZ Image, etc. - and yes, these are all Core). Picking just a few of these spells leaves the Sorcerer open for other, more specialized loadout, while increasing his versatility immensely. Bards get some of these spells, but they get them later (for the most part), and can't cast them as often as the Sorcerer can. In this case, casting stamina quite often means extra flexibility, since Sorcerers normally don't have to worry about running out.Skills at low-mid levels, and class features (Bardic Knowledge, Bardic Music) at all levels help a lot to keep the Bard relevant. As I mentioned before, in a Core-only game, there's not much benefit to be had from the latter, but skills do come in handy from time to time. UMD especially, in a Cha-based class, but also Diplomacy, as you pointed out. Outside Core, bardic music becomes very powerful.As powerful as a well-built Sorcerer/Hathran/Incantatrix? I guess not, but then, what is? Apart from a well-built Wizard/Hathran/Incantatrix, that is...All in all, I'm getting the vibe that you're comparing mostly very low level performance. In that case, yes, Sorcerers simply don't have enough flexibility yet. This changes by about 6th level, and after that, Sorcerers leave Bards in the dust.Have a look at <a href="http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2180.0" target="_blank">this guide</a> by board regular [MENTION=85158]Dandu[/MENTION] (who may come across as snarky from time to time, but knows his stuff). Not only is it full of good advice, it's also occasionally funny!</blockquote>

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