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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sanackranib" data-source="post: 472244" data-attributes="member: 8674">who you are . . ."First off, you seem to agree that toughness is weak to begin with for a feat at first level; that is a general consensus. Further, you neglect to mention that these larger feats are strictly limited by base saving throw and (consequently) by class and level. Sure, toughness is a fair feat fora 1st level wizard, but not so good for (say) a 1st level barbarian and nigh worthless for a 20th level barbarian.Classes that have good fort saves are typically classes with high HD types, and the fort save restriction limit these saves for higher level classes. Further, feats are supposed to have power commensurate with their prerequisites and the minimul level at which you can take them. Linking these feats to fortitude saves was a very elegant way to give characters a hp-booster feat appropriate to the class and level of the character that would take the feat."     _______________________________________________I understand how these feats are constructed. And you iare right in that they are supposed to have power commensurate with their prerequisites and the minimul level at which you can take them". however, the classes that really need the extra hit points are the very ones who will be the ones least able to meet the prerecs. And while toughness isn't going to help a level 20 barbarian much it's also not going to be one he takes then, although he very well may take it at lower levels and get a boost from it then. It also has no prerecs so everyone benifits equally at 1st level (though someone with a weak CON or smaller HD will apriciate it more then  a fighter or barbarian) it helps them all.Also I don't feel that my example is obsurd - extreem yes. and I noticed that you didn't  even mention going up to a feat that grants d20 which would be the next in progression (or is that already in the epic handbook)as to my OPINION about monks, I recognize that they add a different flavor to the game and that a lot of people like them, I have seen them played enough to form the opinion that they don't fit in with the typical "fantasy midevil setting". and IMO the abilities that they get are not balanced with the other classes. As you say this IS an old debate. In the end some use them in their games and others don't. That does not make my OPINION any less valid then yours. It's just a differn't way to play the game. As was posted earlier: We all play the game to have fun.<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /></blockquote>

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