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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
Which Edition for a Megadungeon Campaign? Why?
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<blockquote data-quote="timbannock" data-source="post: 8503767" data-attributes="member: 17913"><p><strong>TL;DR:</strong> OD&D and B/X are the best older editions. Preferably using <em>Delving Deeper</em> or <em>Old School Essentials</em> (respectively) for ease of use. But if your group hates some major aspect of old school gameplay -- mapping dungeons, tracking resources, or something else -- then consider an OSR game that does away with or modifies that specific piece. <em>Knave </em>gets my recommendation, with <em>Five Torches Deep</em> as runner up.</p><p></p><p><strong>Long Version:</strong></p><p></p><p>After seemingly countless years of test-driving OSR games and the original editions they've been based on ever since Castles & Crusades was released, I've pretty much landed on this viewpoint regarding megadungeons, specifically:</p><p></p><p>If your group is into the old school gameplay loop -- primary goal is getting treasure, secondary goal is exploring the campaign setting's backstory; mapping, resource-tracking, and general survival are all on the table -- you really can't beat OD&D (by way of <em>Delving Deeper</em>) or B/X (by way of <em>Old School Essentials</em>). These editions just have the most tightly wound mechanics (bounded accuracy, consistent X-in-6 chance of doing so-and-so for each character) sitting alongside the least complex/intrusive tools (encounters happen X in 6 turns, light runs out in X turns, wandering monster tables by dungeon level, oh and here's a simple but comprehensive hexcrawl system to get from site to site).</p><p></p><p>IMHO the two OSR games I mention organize the info a thousand times better than the original sources, and have the hindsight of errata and rules-as-intended to clarify vague bits. I was always a fan of "more options" in terms of races/classes until I read a great series of forum posts in various spots about why the Thief class kinda messes with the balance of the dungeon exploration mechanics, so those feelings have caused me to prefer <em>Delving Deeper</em>/OD&D without any supplementary classes (I'd argue for maybe including a ranger and/or druid in hexcrawl campaigns), but if you love your Thief class -- and especially if you like the ability to layer in more options like the <em>Advanced Fantasy</em> stuff on occasion -- then OSE is superior.</p><p></p><p>(I'm currently using <em>Delving </em>alongside the AD&D <em>MM1</em>, <em>MM2</em>, and <em>Fiend Folio</em>, and finding it's just as fun and makes hexcrawling/wilderness stuff a bit more interesting. I suspect they are equally handy for a megadungeon in order to keep the challenges fresh and interesting, rather than relying on too many of the same types of monsters over a dozen levels.)</p><p></p><p>If your group is not interested in any one (or more) of the major gameplay loop pieces, then I feel like the real best answer is not an older edition, but an OSR game that gets the "feel" right and does away with the parts you don't like. For example, <em>Five Torches Deep</em> greatly cuts down on gear resource tracking, plus it's broadly compatible with 5e <em>and</em> B/X. I absolutely adored FTD -- everything Sigil Stone puts out is so good! -- but I ultimately enjoyed the equipment stuff, and in fact, think that should be a bigger deal than class features and such. That lead me to <em>Knave </em>and its many hacks. It can work great with the megadungeon stuff, but having a universal system for rolling ability tests also allows you to simplify/ignore the parts of megadungeons your group hates. That could be mapping, or it could be appraising treasure, or making stealth checks, etc.</p><p></p><p>(I'm a little worried about higher level <em>Knave </em>and how the characters will eventually be awesome at finding and avoiding traps whereas OD&D and the like have a mostly static "you always kinda suck at this" thing going on, but it's easy to just rule that traps are still 2-in-6 and characters only use their ability checks for saves in <em>Knave</em>. Leaning into using K<em>nave</em>'s ability checks as saves [which is what they are called in that game, after all], you can literally run OD&D on your side of the screen and the players run <em>Knave </em>on their side, and there's very little dissonance.)</p><p></p><p>Oh, and a bonus (that is a slap in the face of the fact that this is the older edition forum, but I'll say it anyway) is the D&D 5e equipment chapter is the absolute best IMO, and works in any edition. You could argue against variable damage and/or ascending versus descending Armor Class based on your preferences, for sure, but the gear write ups of how things like burning oil, acid, caltrops, ball bearings, and holy water and all that works is something I use regardless of my system choices now.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="timbannock, post: 8503767, member: 17913"] [B]TL;DR:[/B] OD&D and B/X are the best older editions. Preferably using [I]Delving Deeper[/I] or [I]Old School Essentials[/I] (respectively) for ease of use. But if your group hates some major aspect of old school gameplay -- mapping dungeons, tracking resources, or something else -- then consider an OSR game that does away with or modifies that specific piece. [I]Knave [/I]gets my recommendation, with [I]Five Torches Deep[/I] as runner up. [B]Long Version:[/B] After seemingly countless years of test-driving OSR games and the original editions they've been based on ever since Castles & Crusades was released, I've pretty much landed on this viewpoint regarding megadungeons, specifically: If your group is into the old school gameplay loop -- primary goal is getting treasure, secondary goal is exploring the campaign setting's backstory; mapping, resource-tracking, and general survival are all on the table -- you really can't beat OD&D (by way of [I]Delving Deeper[/I]) or B/X (by way of [I]Old School Essentials[/I]). These editions just have the most tightly wound mechanics (bounded accuracy, consistent X-in-6 chance of doing so-and-so for each character) sitting alongside the least complex/intrusive tools (encounters happen X in 6 turns, light runs out in X turns, wandering monster tables by dungeon level, oh and here's a simple but comprehensive hexcrawl system to get from site to site). IMHO the two OSR games I mention organize the info a thousand times better than the original sources, and have the hindsight of errata and rules-as-intended to clarify vague bits. I was always a fan of "more options" in terms of races/classes until I read a great series of forum posts in various spots about why the Thief class kinda messes with the balance of the dungeon exploration mechanics, so those feelings have caused me to prefer [I]Delving Deeper[/I]/OD&D without any supplementary classes (I'd argue for maybe including a ranger and/or druid in hexcrawl campaigns), but if you love your Thief class -- and especially if you like the ability to layer in more options like the [I]Advanced Fantasy[/I] stuff on occasion -- then OSE is superior. (I'm currently using [I]Delving [/I]alongside the AD&D [I]MM1[/I], [I]MM2[/I], and [I]Fiend Folio[/I], and finding it's just as fun and makes hexcrawling/wilderness stuff a bit more interesting. I suspect they are equally handy for a megadungeon in order to keep the challenges fresh and interesting, rather than relying on too many of the same types of monsters over a dozen levels.) If your group is not interested in any one (or more) of the major gameplay loop pieces, then I feel like the real best answer is not an older edition, but an OSR game that gets the "feel" right and does away with the parts you don't like. For example, [I]Five Torches Deep[/I] greatly cuts down on gear resource tracking, plus it's broadly compatible with 5e [I]and[/I] B/X. I absolutely adored FTD -- everything Sigil Stone puts out is so good! -- but I ultimately enjoyed the equipment stuff, and in fact, think that should be a bigger deal than class features and such. That lead me to [I]Knave [/I]and its many hacks. It can work great with the megadungeon stuff, but having a universal system for rolling ability tests also allows you to simplify/ignore the parts of megadungeons your group hates. That could be mapping, or it could be appraising treasure, or making stealth checks, etc. (I'm a little worried about higher level [I]Knave [/I]and how the characters will eventually be awesome at finding and avoiding traps whereas OD&D and the like have a mostly static "you always kinda suck at this" thing going on, but it's easy to just rule that traps are still 2-in-6 and characters only use their ability checks for saves in [I]Knave[/I]. Leaning into using K[I]nave[/I]'s ability checks as saves [which is what they are called in that game, after all], you can literally run OD&D on your side of the screen and the players run [I]Knave [/I]on their side, and there's very little dissonance.) Oh, and a bonus (that is a slap in the face of the fact that this is the older edition forum, but I'll say it anyway) is the D&D 5e equipment chapter is the absolute best IMO, and works in any edition. You could argue against variable damage and/or ascending versus descending Armor Class based on your preferences, for sure, but the gear write ups of how things like burning oil, acid, caltrops, ball bearings, and holy water and all that works is something I use regardless of my system choices now. [/QUOTE]
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