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<blockquote data-quote="Ariosto" data-source="post: 5435085" data-attributes="member: 80487">I don't know what for you makes 4e &quot;too much like a skirmish game&quot;. However, for me I would say that the amount of time (an hour or more) that a fight takes up in 4e is a key factor. In my experience, 3e tends also to be a drag that way.In games such as Traveller and RuneQuest, a single hit is often enough to put someone hors de combat. That alone tends to make for briefer (and perhaps fewer) fights, even if the resolution of each shot is done with bells and whistles.In old D&amp;D, 1st-level characters are normally in that position, but high-level ones tend to avoid getting into it. They start with a lot of points, and usually magical healing resources, and get worn down gradually. (Magic-users and thieves are more vulnerable.) Rarely (in my experience) does the game feature a drawn out duel to the death between figures with 40+ hit points. Moreover, such figures tend to land weapon hits (as opposed to spells) on each other more often, so the rate of taking damage goes up along with the capacity to take it. (YMMV, depending on what kind of defenses you have afoot in your campaign.)Above all, the default &quot;combat system&quot; is extremely minimal. The normal scale of resolution is 10 foot (roughly 3 meter) or 10 yard (about 10 meter) increments, versus (e.g.) five-foot squares in 4e. Most of what other games treat in discrete detail gets assumed in a nominal minute of activity, subsumed in a simple roll &quot;to hit&quot; and another for &quot;damage&quot; -- both of which are by default thoroughly abstract, rather than modeling the process blow by blow.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ariosto, post: 5435085, member: 80487"] I don't know what for you makes 4e "too much like a skirmish game". However, for me I would say that the amount of time (an hour or more) that a fight takes up in 4e is a key factor. In my experience, 3e tends also to be a drag that way. In games such as Traveller and RuneQuest, a single hit is often enough to put someone [I]hors de combat[/I]. That alone tends to make for briefer (and perhaps fewer) fights, even if the resolution of each shot is done with bells and whistles. In old D&D, 1st-level characters are normally in that position, but high-level ones tend to avoid getting into it. They start with a lot of points, and usually magical healing resources, and get worn down gradually. (Magic-users and thieves are more vulnerable.) Rarely (in my experience) does the game feature a drawn out duel to the death between figures with 40+ hit points. Moreover, such figures tend to land weapon hits (as opposed to spells) on each other more often, so the rate of taking damage goes up along with the capacity to take it. (YMMV, depending on what kind of defenses you have afoot in your campaign.) Above all, the default "combat system" is extremely minimal. The normal scale of resolution is 10 foot (roughly 3 meter) or 10 yard (about 10 meter) increments, versus (e.g.) five-foot squares in 4e. Most of what other games treat in discrete detail gets assumed in a nominal minute of activity, subsumed in a simple roll "to hit" and another for "damage" -- both of which are by default thoroughly abstract, rather than modeling the process blow by blow. [/QUOTE]

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