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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7874886" data-attributes="member: 996">It's funny, basically the same thing was said about Hero, above, as well, and neither is the case anymore than it is for virtually any other RPG - certain no more true than it is of 5e & PF2, to sorta at least nod to the actual thread topic.  It's exact same the kind of superficial misperception that the mainstream tends to have of D&D (and the broader hobby, which isn't much viewed separately from D&D), and, you're right, it probably does have something to do with presentation.Maybe it harkens all the way back to TTRPGs breaking out from TT Wargaming?  Just some of the organization/presentation/expectations have never shifted entirely away from that?  Maybe it's lack of familiarity - when you're looking at a TTRPG from the outside, it seems like it's all about combat, as it has a lot of rules, stats, & page-count devoted to it.  And, while no d20 game has been effects-based to a degree remotely comparable to Hero, 4e is perhaps not as far over in the alternate list-based domain as most, while it resorts to long lists of powers, they're mechanically organized and presented like they might be had the system let players build them up from effects, themselves, and, further, have the 'fluff' segregated and, as in an effects-based system, mutable to meet the players' concepts.I guess "presentation" can encompass a number of things, graphic design and page layout and fonts and the like could be part of it.  So can organization and tone.  For instance, games that use 'you' all the time create a conversational tone.  Games that are organized into lists, concept-first, read differently and feel different from games that are organized around mechanics and at most give examples of concepts.  Games can be written to flow and even entertain, when read cover-to-cover, or to be efficient reference books or manuals.  It's a matter of preference which works best for a given gamer, but it seems to color opinions rather strongly.  And, an unfavored presentation style can mean a given gamer never groks the game, at all, and forms a more superficial opinion of it, as downright outsiders tend to.</blockquote>

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