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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Raven Crowking" data-source="post: 5254749" data-attributes="member: 18280">Yup.Wait a sec....There are some odd things going on here.Do you equate sexual desire with cynicism?  I certainly do not!And there certainly is sexual desire -- including a pursuit very reminiscent (though more happily resolved) of that in The Frost Giant's Daughter.  You can find it in The Silmarilion (sp?) or I can quote it if you doubt.  There is also rape, although it happens "off stage", during the Fall of Gondolin.The women Conan meets are both princesses and dancing girls. Conan's motivations are a lot more complex than you suggest, and there are fewer Conan stories where the "treasure hoard is the plot driving macguffin" than otherwise.  Personal honor is often a driving force in Conan stories, as is revenge, because Conan is often a leader of men.  Again, perhaps you are thinking of the pastiches....particularly those of deCamp......which turned other REH stories into "Conan" stories.It is true that we meet Conan at various points in his life.  He is not born being the man he becomes.  Contrary to the typical understanding of the character, when we first meet Conan, in the very first Conan story, he is concerned with the maps of Aquilonia, and is trying to correct their maps of the regions to the north, where he has travelled.  His primary concern is being a wise and just ruler; his primary plot motive is preventing his enemies from killing him so as to gain the throne themselves.One might say, "In Conan, beings from other worlds are demons or Cthulhoid horrors. There are no angels. There is no heaven, but there is a hell.", but the person who did so wouldn't be accurate.  Conan's world is not monotheistic, but there are definitely good supernatural beings who care for thier worshipers.  Again, one appears in the very first Conan story, The Phoenix on the Sword.  Howard's overwhelming idea -- present in much of his fantasy writing, regardless of subgenre -- was that history largely consists of civilizations being built up, and then destroyed by the harder men at the fringes who don't gain the primary benefits of civilization.  He did not applaud it, but he thought it true.  His primary heroes (Conan, Kull, Solomon Kane, El Borak, etc.) are all "hard men" who nonetheless use thier power to do good....to stave off the eventual collapse.  They are all driven by things they don't understand, including an instinctive grasp of justice.  Howard proposes that civilization, in and of itself, tends to blunt justice for expediency.There are also several stories dealing with racial memory or reincarnation, where it is supposed that the sins of past lives must be dealt with eventually....ultimately there is no free lunch.  Injustices always have to be paid for; goodness is always eventually rewarded.JRRT also relies upon the idea of cycles of civilization.  Where a person in Conan's time might look back to the days of "Shining Atlantis", a person in Frodo's time might look back to Numenor.  Both JRRT's heroes and REH's are moved by forces beyond thier understanding.  Where JRRT's heroes differ most from REH's is that JRRT's heroes are heroic because they know their place in the scheme of things, and are ready and willing to serve.  REH's, on the other hand, are actively trying to better themselves, but are willing to die for a just cause.  That active betterment supplies a motivation, but it inevitably and invariably takes a back seat whenever there is a choice concerning justice.In LotR, Boromir falls because he doesn't know his place -- Faramir was intended as one of the Fellowship.  Denethor falls because he doesn't know his place -- he is Steward, not King.  Saruman falls because he doesn't know his place -- he is to serve Middle Earth, not rule it.  Even Morgoth falls because he doesn't know his place, and attempts to control the Music of Anwe.In REH, lots of people know their place.  Those people are not heroes, because they are not proactive.Should a hero serve the vision of others or seek actively to promote his ideal of justice?  This, more than anything else, differentiates JRRT and REH.  It also differentiates the choices in this poll.  Option 1 seems, to me, to suborn the choices of the players to the vision of the DM, whereas Option 2 seems (again, to me) to present an unjust world and ask the players just what they think they should do about it.I don't blame the writer for someone else's interpretation.  Or would it be fair to judge LotR by the Rankin & Bass Return of the King?Or should I just provide quote after quote from story after story to demonstrate my point?  The Conan you describe is not the Conan REH wrote.RC</blockquote>

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