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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Doug McCrae" data-source="post: 5254871" data-attributes="member: 21169">I've never read de Camp. I've read most of REH's Conan, tho not Conan the Conqueror/The Hour of the Dragon, one issue of the 70s Marvel comic and I think I saw the Swarzenegger movie a while back. The vast majority of my Conan knowledge comes from Howard.Part of being a cynic is to believe the motives of others to be base. I admit that normally higher motives have to be professed and that's not the case in Conan, he seems to be honest about what drives him.In the very stories you quote, The Frost Giant's Daughter and the Tower of Elephant, the driving motives are base - sex and money. Conan wants to steal the gem called the Elephant's Heart and to have sex with Ymir's daughter. Her brothers wish to take grisly trophies for their father. It's primitive, lizard brain stuff. Tbh, money is the most sophisticated motive here. The Phoenix on the Sword is a weird one, REH hadn't nailed the formula yet and it has some un-Conanish features such as assistance of the wise old, Gandalf-like figure, Epemitreus to which I think you are alluding. There's talk of destiny and Fate which is also very un-Conan. In the other stories he wins mostly unaided, and his victory is contingent, not fated. Yeah, his writing is full of  decadent types from decaying civilizations, and also totally primitive beings such as ape-men, who are always depicted as a very potent physical threat. His ideal man does seem to be partway between the two extremes, Conan, who is more advanced than an ape-man, but more primitive than most 'civilized' folk.However that in itself leads to baser, more animalistic motives. The best that can be found in the world of Conan, the very best and noblest the world has to offer, is Conan himself - a thief, a reaver, a slayer. Someone motivated largely by primitive desires such as sex, food and physical safety. Someone who responds to perceived threats with aggression, with physical violence. Money is the only fruit of civilization he really wants.This is what I mean by a cynical world view. In the texts Howard does not respect higher pursuits. Spirituality is either primitive superstition, or the pursuit of swarthy high priests with depraved lusts. The gods are not worth following anyway, most of them are Lovecraftian horrors or uncaring, like Crom. Art, science, learning are not the paths to success, the barbarian is king. That Conan is working on a map in Phoenix is a rarity, the same story tells us his true nature - “these matters of statecraft weary me as all the fighting I have done never did.” Conan is no administrator, he is a natural killer. Like many heroes in adventure fiction.Sure, Conan has a few uncharacteristically emo moments, as in your quote from the Tower of the Elephant. But after that it's back to the killing, looting and whoring.It shows us what the readers want, and that's what's in the stories. Lowest common denominator crap. Sex and violence. Cheap thrills. Pure pulp.</blockquote>

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