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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7265061" data-attributes="member: 4937">For someone who doesn't want to discuss anything, you sure have a lot of questions.&nbsp;&nbsp; And although you claim I've used up my allotment of noting that the goal posts have moved, please note that the title of the thread was, &quot;Which parts of D&amp;D came from Tolkien?&quot;, and I have only ever tried to list the answer to that question.&nbsp;&nbsp; I have never tried to prove that all of D&amp;D came from Tolkien, and denied that all of D&amp;D came from Tolkien repeatedly in this thread.Indeed I do.&nbsp; I could go on at length about each of those ideas.&nbsp; For example, &quot;the dungeon&quot; as it came to exist in D&amp;D, has so many potential sources that we could not cite any one with any confidence.&nbsp;&nbsp; But I think it's fair to say that there are enough attributes of &quot;the dungeon&quot; that are not found in Tolkien to suggest that dungeons are not directly lifted from Tolkien, even if they fit comfortably in Tolkien.&nbsp;&nbsp; For one thing, we might expect that we'd generically call all underground realms, &quot;the underground&quot; or the &quot;mines&quot; or some such, rather than &quot;the dungeon&quot; - a term barely appearing in Tolkien (for example, &quot;the dungeons of Dol Goldur&quot;).&nbsp; But we know we call them all the &quot;the dungeon&quot; because the prototype was literally the &quot;donjon&quot; of a ruined castle.I very much get the feeling that you are having a conversation that I'm not having.&nbsp; At no point have I ever claimed D&amp;D was &quot;all&quot; anything.&nbsp; I only claimed that many of the most salient elements - the PC races for example - were clearly Tolkien in origin.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 7265061, member: 4937"] For someone who doesn't want to discuss anything, you sure have a lot of questions. And although you claim I've used up my allotment of noting that the goal posts have moved, please note that the title of the thread was, "Which parts of D&D came from Tolkien?", and I have only ever tried to list the answer to that question. I have never tried to prove that all of D&D came from Tolkien, and denied that all of D&D came from Tolkien repeatedly in this thread. Indeed I do. I could go on at length about each of those ideas. For example, "the dungeon" as it came to exist in D&D, has so many potential sources that we could not cite any one with any confidence. But I think it's fair to say that there are enough attributes of "the dungeon" that are not found in Tolkien to suggest that dungeons are not directly lifted from Tolkien, even if they fit comfortably in Tolkien. For one thing, we might expect that we'd generically call all underground realms, "the underground" or the "mines" or some such, rather than "the dungeon" - a term barely appearing in Tolkien (for example, "the dungeons of Dol Goldur"). But we know we call them all the "the dungeon" because the prototype was literally the "donjon" of a ruined castle. I very much get the feeling that you are having a conversation that I'm not having. At no point have I ever claimed D&D was "all" anything. I only claimed that many of the most salient elements - the PC races for example - were clearly Tolkien in origin. [/QUOTE]

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