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Which parts of D&D came from Tolkien?
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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7266755" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>Ok, then. I'm not sure the origin of the pig-headed orcs is fully established. According to Gygax, as with several other trope codifying images in the game, it came about as the result of a misunderstanding or miscommunication with the illustrator. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Then you have multiple sources of inspiration and you need to weigh which was the more influential, if any. It's perfectly possible for something to be derived generally from the preexisting trope. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Good questions. Let's consider the case of the D&D ranger class. First, one big clue is that the class is called 'Ranger', and none of the other characters you mention were commonly referred to by the term. So that's a big clue that the original class had it's primary or even sole inspiration from a character commonly referred to as a Ranger, which leaves us arguing for either Aragorn or... not much else. Further, we can find numerous things about the Ranger class that suggest the Tolkien origin, including most notably the otherwise inexplicable ability to utilize crystal balls. Even more to the point, we can't point to abilities that are derived from the characters you mention that are showing up in the ranger class. Robin Hood is noted for his pin-point archery, not his tracking ability. Robin hood is noted for having a large band of followers, not as being a loner with limited followers. (Rangers in D&D weren't trope codified as being skilled archers until Hank in the D&D cartoon, after which the concept of 'ranger' began to evolve toward a woodsman/hunter and into its present form.) We would have a hard time figuring out why Fafryd is particularly dangerous fighting orcs. All of this suggests in the case of the D&D ranger there is NOT a multi-source origin. The list of characters you mention weren't attached to the idea of Ranger until 2e, and is a clear case of backwards justification.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>As I said before, the giant spiders in D&D clearly aren't single source inspired by Tolkien. There is no apparent attempt at modeling the giant spider of Tolkien literature - no sleep inducing venom, no ability to talk, no glowing eyes, no ability to produce darkness and shadows magically. Incidentally, this is all much easier than it usually is because we have good dates for the texts and no in which direction the influence could at least potentially run. In the case of 'IT', we know that since IT is published after both Tolkien and D&D, that it couldn't have influenced either. We can't rule out though that Stephen King's deadlights aren't influenced by the evil light that was shining in Shelob's eyes. </p><p></p><p>The rule is this, if the entity shares traits with another entity and those traits are found no where else in any prior example, then it either must be descended from that entity or else shares a missing common ancestor that nothing else we've encountered shares. This rule is used extensively in bioinformatics to organize taxons on the basis of morphological or genetic characteristics. The techniques though are evolved from textual criticism, and it's pretty much the same algorithms you'd use in both cases - fundamentally both text and genetic code can be represented as strings. If the D&D spiders had evil light in their eyes, talked, hated being called attercops, could produce shadows and darkness magically, and had poison that caused sleep then unless we could show that these characteristics were all found together in other giant arachnids of fiction, we could state with great confidence that the parent meme of the D&D spider was the Tolkien spider. This is particularly true because to my knowledge, no other spiders of pulp fiction had any one of those traits, much less them all together. On the other hand the D&D spider had none of these traits, and was closely associated instead with particular species of real spiders being giants of a particular type. This suggests that while the need for giant spiders as a monster of fantasy might have in part been suggested by their appearance in Tolkien (along with other Tolkienesque monsters), the actual derivation was suggested by other sources and the primary source was likely some sort of reference text and not a work of fiction at all. None of the traits particular to a Howard spider or Burroughs spider appear in the text either.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>None of that is really telling. Yes, intelligent talking animals are pervasive in fairy tales, and Tolkien was very consciously imitating fairy tales by having pervasive talking animals. So it could be that the author of D&D was inspired by the general trope in creating his new meme, and not by any one source in particular. But, again, if we can find elements in the new meme that are unique to a source meme, then almost certainly the new meme was at least in part inspired by the source meme. And the more connections we can find of this sort, the more likely it is that the source meme wholly or mostly was the single source inspiration, and not that both the source meme and the new meme had some other common parent. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I feel like I'm going no where in this. Yes, I am very familiar with Norse myths. Yes, 'warg' is wolf even in some modern Scandinavian languages. But it doesn't matter because if we observe features in the new meme that are unique to a source meme, we can be fairly sure that wargs are inspired directly from that source meme and not a literary sibling of some older text. In other words, as soon as we see worgs being ridden by goblins, in so much as we are talking about wargs, we can be pretty darn sure that the writer was inspired by Tolkien and not the Northern European myths that inspired Tolkien. Now, on the other hand, if you can find a document you can show might have been known to the author, that has wargs spelled 'worg' and has them being ridden by goblins, then this might suggest a stronger link to that document and you might deprecate the Tolkien link or at least show that the Tolkien link was but one of many possible sources of inspiration. But right now, we can be pretty sure that it is a direct lift. Even had the author encountered the concept of 'warg' in some older text prior to encountering them in Tolkien, it's obvious he took Tolkien as the definitive work and that it dominated his imagination. The Tolkien origin is sufficient under Occam's Razor to explain the text we encounter. If you want to point to any other source, you have to find some feature of the D&D worg common to that source but not to Tolkien.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 7266755, member: 4937"] Ok, then. I'm not sure the origin of the pig-headed orcs is fully established. According to Gygax, as with several other trope codifying images in the game, it came about as the result of a misunderstanding or miscommunication with the illustrator. Then you have multiple sources of inspiration and you need to weigh which was the more influential, if any. It's perfectly possible for something to be derived generally from the preexisting trope. Good questions. Let's consider the case of the D&D ranger class. First, one big clue is that the class is called 'Ranger', and none of the other characters you mention were commonly referred to by the term. So that's a big clue that the original class had it's primary or even sole inspiration from a character commonly referred to as a Ranger, which leaves us arguing for either Aragorn or... not much else. Further, we can find numerous things about the Ranger class that suggest the Tolkien origin, including most notably the otherwise inexplicable ability to utilize crystal balls. Even more to the point, we can't point to abilities that are derived from the characters you mention that are showing up in the ranger class. Robin Hood is noted for his pin-point archery, not his tracking ability. Robin hood is noted for having a large band of followers, not as being a loner with limited followers. (Rangers in D&D weren't trope codified as being skilled archers until Hank in the D&D cartoon, after which the concept of 'ranger' began to evolve toward a woodsman/hunter and into its present form.) We would have a hard time figuring out why Fafryd is particularly dangerous fighting orcs. All of this suggests in the case of the D&D ranger there is NOT a multi-source origin. The list of characters you mention weren't attached to the idea of Ranger until 2e, and is a clear case of backwards justification. As I said before, the giant spiders in D&D clearly aren't single source inspired by Tolkien. There is no apparent attempt at modeling the giant spider of Tolkien literature - no sleep inducing venom, no ability to talk, no glowing eyes, no ability to produce darkness and shadows magically. Incidentally, this is all much easier than it usually is because we have good dates for the texts and no in which direction the influence could at least potentially run. In the case of 'IT', we know that since IT is published after both Tolkien and D&D, that it couldn't have influenced either. We can't rule out though that Stephen King's deadlights aren't influenced by the evil light that was shining in Shelob's eyes. The rule is this, if the entity shares traits with another entity and those traits are found no where else in any prior example, then it either must be descended from that entity or else shares a missing common ancestor that nothing else we've encountered shares. This rule is used extensively in bioinformatics to organize taxons on the basis of morphological or genetic characteristics. The techniques though are evolved from textual criticism, and it's pretty much the same algorithms you'd use in both cases - fundamentally both text and genetic code can be represented as strings. If the D&D spiders had evil light in their eyes, talked, hated being called attercops, could produce shadows and darkness magically, and had poison that caused sleep then unless we could show that these characteristics were all found together in other giant arachnids of fiction, we could state with great confidence that the parent meme of the D&D spider was the Tolkien spider. This is particularly true because to my knowledge, no other spiders of pulp fiction had any one of those traits, much less them all together. On the other hand the D&D spider had none of these traits, and was closely associated instead with particular species of real spiders being giants of a particular type. This suggests that while the need for giant spiders as a monster of fantasy might have in part been suggested by their appearance in Tolkien (along with other Tolkienesque monsters), the actual derivation was suggested by other sources and the primary source was likely some sort of reference text and not a work of fiction at all. None of the traits particular to a Howard spider or Burroughs spider appear in the text either. None of that is really telling. Yes, intelligent talking animals are pervasive in fairy tales, and Tolkien was very consciously imitating fairy tales by having pervasive talking animals. So it could be that the author of D&D was inspired by the general trope in creating his new meme, and not by any one source in particular. But, again, if we can find elements in the new meme that are unique to a source meme, then almost certainly the new meme was at least in part inspired by the source meme. And the more connections we can find of this sort, the more likely it is that the source meme wholly or mostly was the single source inspiration, and not that both the source meme and the new meme had some other common parent. I feel like I'm going no where in this. Yes, I am very familiar with Norse myths. Yes, 'warg' is wolf even in some modern Scandinavian languages. But it doesn't matter because if we observe features in the new meme that are unique to a source meme, we can be fairly sure that wargs are inspired directly from that source meme and not a literary sibling of some older text. In other words, as soon as we see worgs being ridden by goblins, in so much as we are talking about wargs, we can be pretty darn sure that the writer was inspired by Tolkien and not the Northern European myths that inspired Tolkien. Now, on the other hand, if you can find a document you can show might have been known to the author, that has wargs spelled 'worg' and has them being ridden by goblins, then this might suggest a stronger link to that document and you might deprecate the Tolkien link or at least show that the Tolkien link was but one of many possible sources of inspiration. But right now, we can be pretty sure that it is a direct lift. Even had the author encountered the concept of 'warg' in some older text prior to encountering them in Tolkien, it's obvious he took Tolkien as the definitive work and that it dominated his imagination. The Tolkien origin is sufficient under Occam's Razor to explain the text we encounter. If you want to point to any other source, you have to find some feature of the D&D worg common to that source but not to Tolkien. [/QUOTE]
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