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Message: <blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 8747166" data-attributes="member: 6790260">"Zero levels" or "Novice"/"Apprentice" content should absolutely be a thing, yes. I have strongly advocated for such things since the beginning of the D&D Next playtest: there should be supportive, positive, present in the PHB rules for creating "novice" characters who are still learning the ropes and may not even have all their "baseline" abilities yet (e.g. the possibility of needing to acquire some of your background benefits.)From there, you'd have "Journeyman," where you're formally initiated into your skills. You may not have learned every standard skill of your craft, but you're competent enough to ask for day-wages in it (which is the root of the word "journeyman," coming via French from the Latin diurnus.) Then you'd advance to "Expert," having learned all the standard skills to a high degree of competence; "Master," someone who could teach others the craft if desired; and "Grandmaster," someone who could teach other masters. If each of these were 5 levels, that would get you to 20 (Journeyman 1-5, Expert 6-10, Master 11-15, Grandmaster 16-20.) 5e doesn't cover beyond 20, but further useful terms would be Legend[ary] and Epic, naturally.I mean, I'd argue 4e actually did go beyond that, but the things people found trouble with were different, and in fact quite fixable with an evolutionary, rather than revolutionary, update. But that's a discussion for a different thread.Well...what you just described IS what 4e did. If three levels in 4e is (approximately) equal to 2 levels in 5e, then a level 21 character in 4e is equivalent to a level 14 character in 5e. "13 is the new 20" is pretty close to what you're talking about here. Note that I don't say this because I think you are wrong. I say it because I think you are right, just conflating "4e had problems" (which it absolutely did, both external and internal, both induced from outside and completely self-inflicted) with "because 4e did it, it must not have worked."Spell levels 7, 8, and (especially) 9 are where the wheels truly come off. Where reality has to use metaphorical safe words in its relationship with full spellcasters. The kinds of things a 9th level spellcaster can do--stopping time, creating pocket planes, literally enforcing their wishes on reality--are stuff that even legit actual superheroes struggle to do, if they even get the chance. 4e decided those things should belong in Epic tier. I think that decision was correct.</blockquote>

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