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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mercurius" data-source="post: 9628706" data-attributes="member: 59082">I asked Qwen: if you use the 5th edition of Dungeons and Dragons and you scale it towards real-world realism of skill development, what is the highest level a fighter could reach?[SPOILER="Full answer"]To answer this question, we need to consider how skill development in the real world compares to the progression system in Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition (D&D 5e). In D&D 5e, characters advance through levels by gaining experience points (XP), which are earned primarily through combat encounters and completing objectives. Each level represents an increase in power, skill, and capability.In the real world, skill development follows a slower, more gradual process influenced by factors like practice, learning, innate talent, and time. While D&D is inherently fantastical and not meant to mirror reality perfectly, we can attempt to scale its progression system toward a more realistic framework of skill development.[HR][/HR]<h3>Step 1: Understanding Fighter Progression in D&D 5e</h3>In D&D 5e, a fighter starts at Level 1 with basic combat skills and improves as they gain levels. By Level 20, the highest achievable level in the system, a fighter becomes a near-mythical warrior capable of extraordinary feats, such as making multiple attacks per round, wielding legendary weapons, and surviving incredible amounts of punishment.Key milestones for fighters include:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Levels 1–4 : Novice to competent warrior, skilled but limited.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Levels 5–10 : Seasoned veteran, capable of significant martial prowess.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Levels 11–16 : Master-level fighter, demonstrating superhuman abilities.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Levels 17–20 : Legendary hero, approaching demigod-like combat capabilities.</li> </ul>Each level represents roughly 1,000–30,000 hours of training and experience, depending on how you interpret the XP thresholds. For example, reaching Level 20 requires about 355,000 XP, which could represent decades or even centuries of dedicated effort in a more realistic framework.[HR][/HR]<h3>Step 2: Scaling Toward Real-World Realism</h3>In the real world, achieving mastery in any skill takes years of deliberate practice. Research suggests that it takes approximately 10,000 hours of focused training to become an expert in a given field (the "10,000-hour rule" popularized by Malcolm Gladwell). However, combat and martial arts are particularly complex skills that require not only physical conditioning but also mental acuity, tactical knowledge, and emotional resilience.Let’s break this down:<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Novice (Level 1–2) : A beginner might take 1–2 years of consistent training to develop basic combat skills.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Competent Warrior (Level 3–5) : Achieving proficiency comparable to a professional soldier or seasoned martial artist might take 5–10 years of intense practice.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Master (Level 6–10) : Reaching the level of a true master, such as a renowned historical swordsman or elite military operative, might require 15–25 years of dedication.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Legendary (Level 11+) : Beyond this point, the fighter's abilities begin to exceed what is realistically possible in the real world. Superhuman reflexes, stamina, and tactical genius are hallmarks of these levels.</li> </ol>[HR][/HR]<h3>Step 3: Estimating the Highest Realistic Level</h3>Given the constraints of human physiology, lifespan, and the time required for skill development, we can estimate the highest realistic level for a fighter based on real-world parameters:<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Physical Limitations : Humans have finite potential due to biological constraints. Even with peak conditioning, there are limits to strength, speed, and endurance.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Lifespan : Assuming an average human lifespan of 70–80 years, and dedicating most of one’s life to training, a realistic cap would be around 50–60 years of active practice.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Skill Mastery Timeline : If we assume 10,000 hours for mastery in a single aspect of combat (e.g., swordsmanship), and considering the breadth of skills a D&D fighter must master (weapons, armor, tactics, survival, etc.), achieving full expertise might take 50,000–100,000 hours.</li> </ol>Using these estimates:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A realistic "master" level in D&D terms might correspond to Level 8–10 . This represents someone who has spent 20–30 years honing their craft and achieved extraordinary but still plausible abilities.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Levels beyond 10 begin to stretch realism, as they involve superhuman feats like dodging arrows, striking multiple times per second, or shrugging off mortal wounds.</li> </ul>[/SPOILER][HR][/HR]<h3>Final Answer</h3>If D&D 5e were scaled toward real-world realism of skill development, the highest level a fighter could plausibly reach would be around Level 8–10 , assuming a lifetime of dedicated training and peak physical condition. Beyond this point, the abilities granted by higher levels would exceed what is biologically or practically possible for a human being.To me that sounds about right - that in the real world, D&D martial and non-magical stats would cap around 10th level. Anything above 5th level would represent a "master" level, or as Qwen said:<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Novice (Level 1–2) : A beginner might take 1–2 years of consistent training to develop basic combat skills.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Competent Warrior (Level 3–5) : Achieving proficiency comparable to a professional soldier or seasoned martial artist might take 5–10 years of intense practice.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Master (Level 6–10) : Reaching the level of a true master, such as a renowned historical swordsman or elite military operative, might require 15–25 years of dedication.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Legendary (Level 11+) : Beyond this point, the fighter's abilities begin to exceed what is realistically possible in the real world. Superhuman reflexes, stamina, and tactical genius are hallmarks of these levels.</li> </ol>My only problem with the above is that I'd swap "Novice" for "Trained Warrior" and "Competent Warrior" for "Skilled Warrior." A level 1-2 fighter is not a "novice, and 3-5 is not merely "competent." Presumably all the best fighters in Game of Thrones are 6-10th level. Someone like Barristan Selmy might have reached 10th level, though adjusted somewhat for aging (e.g. loss of STR, DEX, CON). Jaime Lannister and Oberyn Martell might have been 8th-9th level. Maybe Jon Snow ended up around 7th-8th level, but with high stats. Ser Arthur Dayne was probably 10th level with high stats.Anyhow, my question is: Which RPGs best emulate real-world skill development? We can leave magic aside, but in terms of martial and non-magical capacities?I would also suggest that most fantasy media are closer to real world skill development than D&D. Or rather, if the real world caps around 10th level, then most fantasy caps somewhere in the 10-15 range -- allowing for legendary capacities. It is only D&D and, say, the Marvel Cinematic Universe, that has advancement to 20th level (or its equivalent) - and of course Marvel goes beyond that (if "normal" superheroes cap around 20th level, epic and cosmic ones would go much higher).</blockquote>

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