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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Rackhir" data-source="post: 4026255" data-attributes="member: 149">Actually the guy does have a point. He might be doing it in a whinny and irritating fashion, but he's got a basis for complaint.A lv19 wizard is nominally on his own a CR 19 encounter, which means he's a +4 CR challenge for a lv 15 party, never mind a lv 10 party. +4 CR encounters have a decent chance of being a TPK. Stack in even just the 16th lv sorc, beholder and a runic guardian and you have a near certain tpk even with the assistance of the lv 15 wiz.I'd be going "This is nuts!", IF I didn't have some reason to believe otherwise. Part of the problem here is that there's obviously a lack of trust between the players and you. Remember that just because you have the battle all plotted out so as to reduce the dangerousness of it, this isn't necessarily going to be obvious to the players. Especially if you haven't given them good reason to "trust" you aren't going to toss them into a meat grinder or go "Well that was OBVIOUSLY way too dangerous, you should have run away." Which I have seen more than one DM post about situations that sound a whole lot like this.Again, this battle could very easily have killed all or nearly all of the party. A 16th lv sorc can hit them with with a maximized cone of cold (90 pts damage) with a DC of easily 22. Given a reflex save of probably about 10-11 for most non-dex char that's probably no more than a 50% chance of making the save. If they don't, lots 10th lv characters have a good chance of dying from it and that much damage could kill a mage even IF they make the save. Just the sorcerer on his OWN is an extremely dangerous opponent, with support it can very quickly turn lethal. What if the Wiz had failed a save and gone down instead of the Sorc. How long would the party have lasted at that point?Especially if this is coming immediately after the battle with the Sorc and the rest of them, yes it does stand a substantial chance of a TPK. Since the chances of a TPK go up considerably, when you have to fight multiple high CR encounters without a chance to rest and regain resources (Spells, potions, etc). Also the Save DCs for a 19th lv wizard are on a different planet than the save bonuses for 10th level characters. For a 9th level spell with Spell Focus and an Int likely in the high 20s, you could hit a DC 30. Which means most 10th level char could need something close to a 20 to save.Now it sounds like you probably gimped the Wiz in some fashion, but even if you did. You have characters who are way out of their depth who are being assisted by what sounds like that most loathed of creations the DMPC. Who's way more powerful than they are and sounds like he's probably pulling most of the weight in the fights, reducing the PCs to essentially bystanders in a story that's supposed to be about them.It sounds like this wasn't your intention and it sounds like you had an idea for what struck you as a really cool encounter and sequence of battles, but it also sounds like you are probably guilty of wanting to tell a story you wanted to tell regardless of what the players might want to do. Players like at least the illusion of control. Nobody likes sitting back and playing second fiddle to an NPC who's way more powerful than they are.You've got more of a case here, but remember even if the player is a whiny irritating crybaby, he might have a point.So what you're saying is you filled a dungeon with creatures that are essentially immune to anything he could do and then hit him with creatures he has very little chance of affecting and you are wondering why he was upset and bored?Look it might have been logical that it was mostly Iron Golems in there, but it's obviously not going to be much fun for someone who's sole role is to cast Bull's Strength on the fighter. There are constructs that aren't immune to magic, you could have put some of them in there. There are plenty of Undead who don't have high SR, why didn't you put some of them in there?Were you trying to punish him for being whiny?I mean seriously if the tables were turned and you were faced with an adventure that was seemingly specifically designed to render you useless, wouldn't you be bored and irritated?Would the fighter be any happier if a dungeon consisted solely of creatures with DR he couldn't get through followed by creatures with a 80% miss chance on any physical attacks?Look try talking to your players, specifically the whining one. Maybe it's just a mismatch of playing styles. It certainly sounds like the two of you are operating with a different set of assumptions. If you both clarified what you were looking for and what you disliked in an adventure it might go a long way to ease the friction.Remember just because something is obvious or clear to you, it is not necessarily obvious or clear to the players. You need to be on the same page before you can make those kinds of assumptions.</blockquote>

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