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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Gothmog" data-source="post: 4031087" data-attributes="member: 317">My real problem with this player isn't that he doesn't have some valid points- he does.  Its the method in which he's chosen to express himself- namely being a whiny, passive-aggressive jackass.Yes, the encounter with the 19th level wizard and his bunch was a little over the top, and I can see how it would be frustrating to wonder "how the hell are we going to get out of this?!?!?!"  But the best way to handle it would be to talk to the DM outside the game, and address it something like this:"Hey, I had a concern that the fight with the really powerful wizard was way beyond our abilities, and it made me feel hopeless and really inconsequential that we got put up against something so far beyond our abilities.  I know it might have been part of the plot for the adventure to include this guy, but for our group combat probably wasn't the best option, and using a higher-level PC to even the odds kinda minimalized our choices and importance.  Maybe in the future, give us a little more more options in the way we handle this kind of thing."Thats a perfectly reasonable response that addresses the player's concerns, and a MUCH more mature way to handle it.  Most DMs I've played with wouldn't be offended by someone making a rational case like this, and would listen to the player.  But when he started whining something like:"OMG!  Don't you know the DMG sayz you are not supposed to have such tough opponents for us?  I am suppozed to Roxxorz!  ROAR!  This isn't FAIR!  You suxxor as a DM because you don't follow RAW!"Any DM that heard that would shut down the logical part of his brain and would be justified in asking the player if he soiled his diaper.  I hope everyone here can see the differnce in how this was handled.  Whining is horribly immature, and only serves to set everyone against you.  Playing passive-aggressive head games instead of calmly and logically explaining your position also compromises any integrity you have to your arguement.I've dealt with players like this on four separate occasions before- three times as a fellow player, once as a DM.  EVERY single time they are annoying and being selfish, extremely immature jerks.  The three separate times I was a player and another player did this, that player in question was a glory hog, HAD to be the center of attetion, HAD to be the much-loved and admired hero, and would throw temper tantrums if anything didn't go their way, often citing rules or "fairness" as their objection, when it was in fact due to their own egotistical personality traits.  We put up with the players for 5 or 6 sessions each time, trying to calm them down and hoping they would work with the rest of the group and try to have fun, but none of the three people did.  We ended up kicking them out of the group each time (usually amidst much drama, temper tantrums, and in one case CRYING).The time I was DM and someone tried this, I pulled him aside immediately after a temper tantrum (involving not being able to do full damage with his spells to a creature that had immunity to certain types of attacks, and I was nerfing his character), and explained if he has a problem to take it up with me outside the game.  He grumbled, but agreed.  Two hours later, he threw a hissy fit again about failing a save where he missed it by 1, and screamed it wasn't fair, I was a "s***ty" DM for making the encouter too hard, threw some dice, blah blah blah.  The other players got visibly uncomfortable, and one of them them gave me the finger across the throat sign.  I stopped the game, got up, went over to him and told him to leave and never come back.  He proceeded to throw another tempter tantrum, kicked doors, etc on his way out- good riddance.  My gaming time is too precious to spend it coddling immature jerks like that.  And remember, no gaming is better than horrendously bad gaming like that.</blockquote>

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