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Message: <blockquote data-quote="brehobit" data-source="post: 3647562" data-attributes="member: 12032">Say you've got a barbarian with a 16 STR (about average IME at lower levels) and you are trying to pick between WF and Rage.  Say you expect that you need a 12, on the average to hit without rage and you do 2d6+4 damage (11 average) normally.  All these seem about right.With no rage/WF you get .45*11 for your average damage = 4.95With rage you get .55*14 = 7.7With WF you get 2*.35*11.  = 7.7Looks good so far on damage.  I'm willing to say that the other differences (AC, hit points, will save, duration of rage) come out in favor of WF by a small amount (+4 AC is nice, but +2 will save, +2 hit points/level and +2 rounds of rage is also nice)The problem is that rage usually gets used against your big baddy, so you generally see a higher AC.  If you need a 16 initially, things get ugly: no rage/WF: .25*11 = 2.75rage: .35*14 = 4.9WF: 2*.15*11 = 3.3And if you need a 18 (without rage) the WF barbarian will do more damage by not being in a WF.When you add in iterative attacks it gets even worse for WF.  Maybe drop the STR bonus for WF to +2 would be a good compromise. I still like the idea of the 2nd attack having to be used against a different target.  IME that will limit when WF is useful, but it will be obvious to the barbarian when to use it in-character (rather than needing to know AC to know if it is good idea or not...)Mark</blockquote>