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<blockquote data-quote="Ywain" data-source="post: 150577" data-attributes="member: 1420">I consider the WWA/Great Cleave combo to be a feature of the Fighter class.&nbsp; All other classes get 7 feats in their careers, it takes 8 feats to pull this off.&nbsp; A human barbarian, paladin or ranger can do it, but the character will be 18th(!) level before it is possible and they can't take any other feats than the prerequisites.A fighter can achieve this combination at 8th level if he doesn't take Weapon Focus, Specialization or any other generally useful feats.&nbsp; More typically it is 12th or 14th level.And he still has to put a 13 in Intelligence, and not wear heavy armor.These &quot;blind kobold&quot; mental games are fun and all, but I've never seen it happen in an actual game and have never heard tell of it happening in an actual game on these or any other boards.&nbsp; They are such unusual circumstances that a DM probably couldn't set it up by accident -- and they are such odd circumstances that few DMs would set it up on purpose.&nbsp; I'm talking here about evil monsters having scads of allies to kill in order to get extra attacks on the enemy round after round.&nbsp; That is where it &quot;seems&quot; abusive.&nbsp; In normal circumstances a fighter with these feats will get a few extra attacks every now and then (enough to make it worthwhile) but not in every encounter.&nbsp; Don't forget that even with Great Cleave you only get one extra attack per opponent dropped so it isn't like you can get 30 free attacks when facing 4 opponents -- you will get exactly 3 in the entire encounter.&nbsp; Improved Two Weapon Fighting will probably add up to more free attacks over your career than adding Great Cleave to your WWA.Oh yeah, you did realize that you still get your offhand attacks when you Whirlwind Attack.&nbsp; Didn't you?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ywain, post: 150577, member: 1420"] I consider the WWA/Great Cleave combo to be a feature of the Fighter class. All other classes get 7 feats in their careers, it takes 8 feats to pull this off. A human barbarian, paladin or ranger can do it, but the character will be 18th(!) level before it is possible and they can't take any other feats than the prerequisites. A fighter can achieve this combination at 8th level if he doesn't take Weapon Focus, Specialization or any other generally useful feats. More typically it is 12th or 14th level. And he still has to put a 13 in Intelligence, and not wear heavy armor. These "blind kobold" mental games are fun and all, but I've never seen it happen in an actual game and have never heard tell of it happening in an actual game on these or any other boards. They are such unusual circumstances that a DM probably couldn't set it up by accident -- and they are such odd circumstances that few DMs would set it up on purpose. I'm talking here about evil monsters having scads of allies to kill in order to get extra attacks on the enemy round after round. That is where it "seems" abusive. In normal circumstances a fighter with these feats will get a few extra attacks every now and then (enough to make it worthwhile) but not in every encounter. Don't forget that even with Great Cleave you only get one extra attack per opponent dropped so it isn't like you can get 30 free attacks when facing 4 opponents -- you will get exactly 3 in the entire encounter. Improved Two Weapon Fighting will probably add up to more free attacks over your career than adding Great Cleave to your WWA. Oh yeah, you did realize that you still get your offhand attacks when you Whirlwind Attack. Didn't you? [/QUOTE]

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