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Message: <blockquote data-quote="IceBear" data-source="post: 150958" data-attributes="member: 1118">Yes, rats are pretty useless against a 12th level fighter, but the reason I use vampires and rats is because this REALLY is the only logical scenario where this comes up - a wizard and 7 blind kobolds surrounding a fighter will probably never happen so the argument is moot - ask anyone if this has ever actually HAPPENED in a game.Anyway, as I said, there are rats there with the vampire (Just because I as the DM know that rats will not make much of a difference against a 12th level fighter doesn't mean I'm going to metagame that rats said fighter will never encounter rats again, but that's a different argument).  You argue that that it's only fair that the fighter should get 7 attacks against the vampire for using up all those feats.  I think it's too cheesy for words and I would then HAVE to metagame away all weak creatures or else all the powerful monsters would die too easy.However, if, somehow, there were 7 orcs surrounding the same fighter and a powerful evil knight in front of him, I don't see the fighter using his feats to kill all 7 orcs (who could grapple him to the ground if they got the chance) and getting two hits against the evil fighter at full BAB as the fighter not getting full use out of his 8 feats.  Compared to the normal fighter who only got to attack three times and at best was left with the evil fighter and 4 orcs left standing after his action.YMMV, and it obviously does, but I don't think the fighter is getting too screwed.  He can still wade through ranks of goblins and kobolds he just can't use the fact that there ARE goblins and kobolds around to suddenly get 7 extra attacks against a well trained opponent when he wouldn't have gotten those 7 extra attacks if there weren't any goblins and kobolds around.[Edit] Yes I can see merit in your analysis of WWA+GC vs just GC.  Again, neither I (and here's the important part) nor my PLAYERS feel that you should suffer just because there are weaker creatures around.  That's the bottom line in our opinion.  We also see WWA as being used mainly when you are surrounded by several fairly tough monsters and you'd rather trying to damage all of them using you highest BAB rather than taking your iterative attacks.  Against blind kobolds, just make a normal attack and let GC take care of the rest for you. Again, the case where a 12th level fighter is surround by 7 weak opponents and 1 strong has NEVER come up as far as I can remember.  The vampire situation is the only plausible one I can think of and as you said it's not really something an intelligent vampire would do anyway.  So, for the most part, this will never come up.  If it does, I'm in favor of ruling for the defensive.IceBear</blockquote>

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