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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ywain" data-source="post: 151197" data-attributes="member: 1420">IceBear,Your houserules are your business, of course.  I just want to make it crystal clear that there are no balance issues at play.  The fighter will not become too powerful if you allow the combination.  In fact, I think that the fighter was intended to capitalize on the synergies between multiple feat chains (after all they are the only ones who can do this) and reducing the power of these synergies reduces the power of the fighter class in the same way as changing the flatfooted rules reduces the power of the rogue.  With your system I would drop some of the prerequisites of WWA so that it is more in line with Great Cleave (which you can get sooner and is more powerful at high levels by your houserules).Personally, I think that you and your group are approaching the situation from the wrong angle.  You see 7 extra attacks by adding great cleave to whirlwind attack.  I see 3 extra attacks by adding whirlwind attack to great cleave.  And I don't have a problem with synergy bonuses to skills, so I don't have a problem with synergy tactics with feats.  You spend 8 feats on a tactic, you are going to be very, very good at it.Hong,"This is a stupid reason to justify something that strains most people's sense of disbelief."So, lesse, I'm being stupid and you are speaking for most people.  Why in tarnation didn't you pipe up sooner?"1) 9 attacks on 9 targets is not the same as 9 attacks on one target."There's no way you can get 9 attacks on 9 targets with either WWA or Great Cleave or the combination of the two (well, Spiked Chain is the exception, but there's an extra feat involved).  You can only have 8 targets around you at any given time, and WWA only works on opponents 5' away.  You are misrepresenting my argument with fabricated numbers.Actually, if you read the entire post you'll see that with either system there are multiple attacks on the leader.  The nerfed system gives full iterative attacks and the core system gives cleave attacks.  The difference between the systems works out to one or two attacks in a best case scenario.  But I reiterate, both systems allow multiple attacks on the leader, IceBear's system just usually allows more in a simple great cleave than a WWA/GC combo."2) You've overlooked the fact that WWA functions whether or not you drop everyone, whereas GC requires that you drop each target before going on to the next. "Not overlooked at all, just set aside in favor of the extreme circumstances that seems to make everyone nervous.  In the vast majority of circumstances the Fighter will only see one or possible two great cleave attacks in any given round that he uses WWA.  (Which, to me, means that mostly the arguments against are scaremongering)  But not always. At higher levels, it is usually most beneficial to concentrate on one opponent at a time to try to reduce the amount of damage you are taking.   After all it will take 2 or 3 rounds to finish off any one of the foes surrounding you.  A smart player with 8 feats can get a small advantage by mixing up his tactics.  Start with a full iterative attack for a round or two, then when you think the first opponent is close to dropping you power attack for +2 or +4 while you WWA (all at highest attack bonus so you get more bang for your Power Attack) and hopefully drop the first opponent.  This allows a cleave on the next opponent (power attack is still in force).  You probably switch back to iterative attacks for a round on the second opponent, then back to WWA to finish him off (cleaving into an opponent who has been WWA'd twice already).  Now, depending on how many HP you think the 3rd opponent has you have to decide between WWA or Iterative attacks but at some point you just switch to WWA and the last 3 or 4 opponents will be wiped out in a round or two as the accumulated damage allows multiple great cleaves.  The great cleave in the last round probably shaves two rounds off the length of a long, tough combat.Typical situations are far less dramatic than artificial blind kobold/bucket of snails hysteria-fests."3) Fireball is a useful wizard spell against hordes of mooks, but it isn't so useful against one strong guy. The same applies here. "Sure.  Exactly.  You spend 8 feats to be able to achieve this combination and it is not applicable in the least to a large number of encounters.  If a fighter has foregone Focus and Specialization in order to get this combo 3 or 4 levels early it definitely isn't a powergaming choice.  If you nerf it even more than the core rules it becomes in many ways weaker than just taking Great Cleave, if for no other reason than you can take the extra feats and apply them to something useful at level 16+. "4) In the final analysis, nobody is forced to take both GC and WWA."I agree.  Who could argue with this.  I do believe though that if it is a core option (and a feature of the fighter class) then it should be worth the trouble to those who want it.  The cost should reflect the benefit.   I think that the benefit is appropriate.</blockquote>

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