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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Persiflage" data-source="post: 5323388" data-attributes="member: 73597">This really ought not to be as hard as it's proving to be, but I suppose that's rules-lawyering at the sharp end  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />I'm gonna start from scratch with this one...Can the Whirlwind Attack and Pounce abilities be used together?  I guess the answer rests with the hierarchy of precedence of rules, or "what order stuff happens in".  For reference, my reasoning is on the basis that the rule closest to the "foundations" of the game is unilaterally in effect until it's explicitly contradicted.  If it is explicitly contradicted, only those elements of the rule that are affected by the contradiction are invalid in that specific case.I know others have quoted these rules but I like to keep things in one place where I can see 'em.  I've nested the rules where relevant for illustration  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />I've tried to make it easy to follow by colour-coding the "exception" rules, and I've highlighted in red the text of the "called" rules that is invalidated by the exception that's doing the calling.OK, so what's happening up 'til now?  You invoke your Pounce special ability, which explicitly allows you to CHARGE, and then follow with a FULL-ATTACK.  The CHARGE rules call the "FULL-ROUND ACTION" definition, which states that a full-round action consumes all of your actions for the round and that your only movement allowed is a 5-foot step.  Both of these conditions are violated by the exception (CHARGE) that calls them.Next you take a FULL-ATTACK.  The FULL-ATTACK rules also call the "FULL-ROUND ACTION" definition, but the FULL-ATTACK definition doesn't violate the basic requirements of a full-round action.  The Pounce ability overall does, but the full-attack action you get after your charge does not.No matter: the Pounce ability has let you - explicitly - perform a full-round action (charge) followed by another full-round action (full attack).  It doesn't say "you get to make a full round of attacks as part of a charge", it says "you get to make a charge, and then take a full attack".You see, as written it actually doesn't matter that charging is "a special full-round action" and "a full attack is a full-round action": the ability lets you do both, one after the other.  It's an exception that overrides the rules it calls out.Strictly speaking, what Pounce does - and I'm not arguing it's necessarily intended this way - is let you charge (move up to double your speed, followed by a single attack) and then take a full attack (your full normal number of attacks, including a five-foot step if you want to).  Yes, that's right, if you interpret Pounce strictly as written you actually get more attacks than if you take the full-attack action, because you get an attack as part of the charge action, followed by the full-attack action.This leaves us with......which doesn't even pose us a problem at this point.  The full-attack we get to take is NOT happening as part of a charge, it's happening after a charge.  As such, we can do anything we could normally do when taking a full attack, including Whirlwind Attack, trips, bull-rushing, disarms, whatever.Pounce doesn't grant "extra attacks", it grants an extra full-round action; it's just that the only type of full-round action it gives you is "a full attack".  You might call that semantic hair-splitting but it's really not: hell, Whirlwind Attack isn't even invoked until after you reach the last thing that the Pounce ability does, which is "grant you the full attack action you need".   You don't even have to decide whether or not you want to use Whirlwind Attack until you come to take the full attack action that Pounce has given you after your charge.Anything which grants extra attacks that comes into play after you've invoked Whirlwind Attack (haste, Cleave, flurry of blows, or Snap Kick for instance) is invalidated by the use of Whirlwind Attack, but it doesn't retrospectively invalidate you "already having used Pounce to grant you the full attack action after a charge".  I don't believe it - I've just agreed with both HoboGod and Vegepygmy in the same post!  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />EDIT:  If you're still finding it hard to swallow, compare the Time Stands Still manoeuver.  It grants two successive full-attack actions and would therefore allow two consecutive Whirlwind Attacks.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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