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<blockquote data-quote="Steel_Wind" data-source="post: 5810953" data-attributes="member: 20741"><p>I would have though how I came across, dude, was in what I <em><span style="color: lemonchiffon">actually said</span></em> -- not how you "felt" about it.</p><p></p><p>That's your opinion. I am not sure that it is factual; though I admit that many others believe it to be true (which, for marketing purposes, can make it a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts).</p><p></p><p>But if done right, it's just not true. </p><p></p><p>Dragon and Dungeon were print magazines. If all DDI offered were electronic were electronic versions of that, you'd be right.</p><p></p><p>If what DDI offers is a complete updated electronic version of the game, a complete electronic tabletop, freely shareable electronic modules, a massive database of customizable maps and endless 3d minis and a hosting service, LFR campaign etc. and entire Adventure Paths a few clicks away? Then it's not a magazine supplement for the game -- it IS D&D Online. </p><p></p><p>And that's no longer remotely the same thing at all as a copy of Dragon Magazine, ca. 1981. They are not even REMOTELY the same thing.</p><p></p><p>If we are talking about what "doing it right" is, then I think it would include all of those things. (And probably more). Is that worth $10 a month? Hell yes -- might even get twice that out of the marketplace, frankly. </p><p></p><p>You might not be one of those customers, and the people you play Deadlands with or whatever might not be one of those customers either -- but that's not the point.</p><p></p><p>This isn't about you -- this is about the marketplace. And you aren't the marketplace.</p><p></p><p>If we are quibbling about the sales of apples -- that might matter. If we are instead discussing the overall market for potential fruit sales? Then it's quite relevant.</p><p></p><p>Yes, there are one time buyers of books. Those people churn in and out of the customer base in 12-24 months. Beyond that, we have lifestyle gamers, who go in deep, long and large as gamers. They tend to exit the market when the move or get married. And being an accessible online game changes the pressure those external events can have in driving a wedge between a committed gamer and the game.</p><p></p><p>People can churn in and churn out as part of an online D&D game, too. And doubtless, they would. </p><p></p><p>Are there enough of those to get to $50 million in revenue a year for a subscription service that "does it right"? Oh yes, I think there is no question of that at all. </p><p></p><p>The question is then what the cost of creating the so-called "done right" service is. It happens to be damned expensive. Certainly too much for the current Hasbro Board, but the discussion was one of potential product revenue based on potential -- not the realities of having to deal with entrenched personalities as they are now. </p><p></p><p>Because they are vastly different products that bear no relation to one another and the perceived value of an online game is higher than that of a magazine. People will pay much more for a high quality online game that is unique and offers good value for the money.</p><p></p><p>And the amount of entertainment that a high quality tabletopesque D&D Online game could offer monthly is nickels and dimes per hour of entertainment value. So yes, I think that's entirely achievable.</p><p></p><p>Which speaks to the problem of the roll-out of DDI and allowing it to become associated in the customer's mind with just another way of receiving an electronic version of a magazine. That was a big-ass mistake. It's one of the main reason we are now discussing 5E and Pathfinder, instead of all of us being too busy playing 4E online.</p><p></p><p>What they initially wanted to sell people was something at least in the same league as WoW (not necessarily the same <em>ballpark</em> -- but at least in the same league) in terms of its perceived entertainment value. </p><p></p><p>Instead, what they have -- until very recently -- ended up selling to the market was an electronic version of Dragon Magazine, which then morphed into an electronic rules reference, unevenly maturing character/monster software, and now a questionably coded game table.</p><p></p><p>I was in the ballroom in Gencon when 4E promised the 3d game table -- same as you. Everyone cheered and clapped. That was a worthy vision. </p><p></p><p>The people in charge of the purse strings utterly dropped the ball. That mistake was one of the "craters" I referred to initially. It's a crater that they have to stand in when they come up next to bat. It's a big hole to climb out of. Is it too late to make that happen now? <strong><em>Probably, yes</em></strong>. But <em>probably</em> is a long-distance call from <em>100% certainty</em>. </p><p></p><p>If they get the game table aspect of the product RIGHT, then the perception of the DDI product as an inferior electronic good to a paper magazine subscription vanishes entirely.</p><p></p><p>I'm not sure all of this can happen now. It could have happened, but you only get a chance to rollout an online game once, frankly. This perhaps speaks to the unsuitability of WotC’s and Hasbro’s staffing and funding decision in the matter. It also speaks to the poor wisdom in engaging outside contractors on the cheap. You need to tod something like this in house and change the nature of the company that you are in order to "do it right."</p><p></p><p>And yes, you end up changing the game product you are selling too, in order to "do it right". But that's another topic for another time.</p><p></p><p>That's the problem with WotC in all of this. Hasbro's board of directors for many years <em>justifiably</em> felt that WoW was earning billions on a game concept that TSR had invented. That resentment was FAIR AND JUSTIFIED from a certain point of view. Blizzard <em>was</em> cutting D&D's grass.</p><p></p><p>But instead of realizing that Blizzard only did so after a massive investment of time, talent and money, Hasbro refused to fund and develop an electronic product that could compete and actually present a great RPG experience online -- be it a tabletop one, or otherwise. </p><p></p><p>Anyway, yeah, I think it’s <strong><em>very hard</em></strong> but it is still not <strong><em>impossible</em></strong> from a theoretical perspective to do this now. Most importantly, <em>Hasbro has the money to do this if they want</em>. That's not a small point. They always did and they always have. The fact that they misunderstand software and lost 100 million on Hasbro Online over a decade ago does not speak to whether it was a good market to get into -- it speaks only to their poor execution and mismanagement of some of the most valuable brands in the history of computer games. I happen to think it was an exceptionally GOOD idea which men whose expertise lay in manufacturing plastic toys in China for sale on the shelves of Wal-Mart was not well suited for. </p><p></p><p>But that doesn't mean that it's not doable. I believe that it is.</p><p></p><p>If you disagree -- then you do.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Steel_Wind, post: 5810953, member: 20741"] I would have though how I came across, dude, was in what I [I][COLOR=lemonchiffon]actually said[/COLOR][/I] -- not how you "felt" about it. That's your opinion. I am not sure that it is factual; though I admit that many others believe it to be true (which, for marketing purposes, can make it a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts). But if done right, it's just not true. Dragon and Dungeon were print magazines. If all DDI offered were electronic were electronic versions of that, you'd be right. If what DDI offers is a complete updated electronic version of the game, a complete electronic tabletop, freely shareable electronic modules, a massive database of customizable maps and endless 3d minis and a hosting service, LFR campaign etc. and entire Adventure Paths a few clicks away? Then it's not a magazine supplement for the game -- it IS D&D Online. And that's no longer remotely the same thing at all as a copy of Dragon Magazine, ca. 1981. They are not even REMOTELY the same thing. If we are talking about what "doing it right" is, then I think it would include all of those things. (And probably more). Is that worth $10 a month? Hell yes -- might even get twice that out of the marketplace, frankly. You might not be one of those customers, and the people you play Deadlands with or whatever might not be one of those customers either -- but that's not the point. This isn't about you -- this is about the marketplace. And you aren't the marketplace. If we are quibbling about the sales of apples -- that might matter. If we are instead discussing the overall market for potential fruit sales? Then it's quite relevant. Yes, there are one time buyers of books. Those people churn in and out of the customer base in 12-24 months. Beyond that, we have lifestyle gamers, who go in deep, long and large as gamers. They tend to exit the market when the move or get married. And being an accessible online game changes the pressure those external events can have in driving a wedge between a committed gamer and the game. People can churn in and churn out as part of an online D&D game, too. And doubtless, they would. Are there enough of those to get to $50 million in revenue a year for a subscription service that "does it right"? Oh yes, I think there is no question of that at all. The question is then what the cost of creating the so-called "done right" service is. It happens to be damned expensive. Certainly too much for the current Hasbro Board, but the discussion was one of potential product revenue based on potential -- not the realities of having to deal with entrenched personalities as they are now. Because they are vastly different products that bear no relation to one another and the perceived value of an online game is higher than that of a magazine. People will pay much more for a high quality online game that is unique and offers good value for the money. And the amount of entertainment that a high quality tabletopesque D&D Online game could offer monthly is nickels and dimes per hour of entertainment value. So yes, I think that's entirely achievable. Which speaks to the problem of the roll-out of DDI and allowing it to become associated in the customer's mind with just another way of receiving an electronic version of a magazine. That was a big-ass mistake. It's one of the main reason we are now discussing 5E and Pathfinder, instead of all of us being too busy playing 4E online. What they initially wanted to sell people was something at least in the same league as WoW (not necessarily the same [I]ballpark[/I] -- but at least in the same league) in terms of its perceived entertainment value. Instead, what they have -- until very recently -- ended up selling to the market was an electronic version of Dragon Magazine, which then morphed into an electronic rules reference, unevenly maturing character/monster software, and now a questionably coded game table. I was in the ballroom in Gencon when 4E promised the 3d game table -- same as you. Everyone cheered and clapped. That was a worthy vision. The people in charge of the purse strings utterly dropped the ball. That mistake was one of the "craters" I referred to initially. It's a crater that they have to stand in when they come up next to bat. It's a big hole to climb out of. Is it too late to make that happen now? [B][I]Probably, yes[/I][/B]. But [I]probably[/I] is a long-distance call from [I]100% certainty[/I]. If they get the game table aspect of the product RIGHT, then the perception of the DDI product as an inferior electronic good to a paper magazine subscription vanishes entirely. I'm not sure all of this can happen now. It could have happened, but you only get a chance to rollout an online game once, frankly. This perhaps speaks to the unsuitability of WotC’s and Hasbro’s staffing and funding decision in the matter. It also speaks to the poor wisdom in engaging outside contractors on the cheap. You need to tod something like this in house and change the nature of the company that you are in order to "do it right." And yes, you end up changing the game product you are selling too, in order to "do it right". But that's another topic for another time. That's the problem with WotC in all of this. Hasbro's board of directors for many years [I]justifiably[/I] felt that WoW was earning billions on a game concept that TSR had invented. That resentment was FAIR AND JUSTIFIED from a certain point of view. Blizzard [I]was[/I] cutting D&D's grass. But instead of realizing that Blizzard only did so after a massive investment of time, talent and money, Hasbro refused to fund and develop an electronic product that could compete and actually present a great RPG experience online -- be it a tabletop one, or otherwise. Anyway, yeah, I think it’s [B][I]very hard[/I][/B] but it is still not [B][I]impossible[/I][/B] from a theoretical perspective to do this now. Most importantly, [I]Hasbro has the money to do this if they want[/I]. That's not a small point. They always did and they always have. The fact that they misunderstand software and lost 100 million on Hasbro Online over a decade ago does not speak to whether it was a good market to get into -- it speaks only to their poor execution and mismanagement of some of the most valuable brands in the history of computer games. I happen to think it was an exceptionally GOOD idea which men whose expertise lay in manufacturing plastic toys in China for sale on the shelves of Wal-Mart was not well suited for. But that doesn't mean that it's not doable. I believe that it is. If you disagree -- then you do. [/QUOTE]
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