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Message: <blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 2517459" data-attributes="member: 2067">There are many quite vast, monumental barriers between pen-and-paper gaming and video-gaming. The two do not directly compete. They are very different things, meant for very different effects. They share some similarities, but so do literature and movies, but I'd hardly say the two are trying for the same effect.You're right, some folks do play D&D with the same outlook they would an MMO. You pointed out those deep-immersion "role playing servers" where people stay in-character, for instance. There's also those who want to use D&D to simply develop character abilities (which is the main goal of most MMO's). Only, people wanting to play D&D like MMO's predates MMO's. Gaining XP for finding treasure? Resurrection magic that is commonly available? Gaining name level? Thus, you haven't shown that MMOG's are responsible for any sort of change in behavior or game design. D&D has long supported people more interested in gaining treasure and levels than in exploring character deapth, and has done so quite happily. You're telling me a general statement doesn't universally apply? Weeeee-eeell, ain't you just full of keen observations of the obvious.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" /> Let's consult the books themselves, then, to find out how important role-playing is in them?It really seems that at the baseline of the D&D game lies a heapin' helpin' of storytelling and making PC's "part of the world," (e.g.: verisimilitude). That's certainly not the sole focus, and some groups won't be concerned with it as much, but it is a very prominent focus.Some folks playing D&D like an MMO is not the fault of MMO's or because D&D is being designed like a video game. Some folks were playing D&D like an MMO before MMO's existed. The most recent edition seems very concerned with creating a character, creating a story, creating dramatic tension, and giving the DM all the tools he needs  to do that. Becuase a campaign more focused on story does not need concrete rules (according to the DMG), the concrete rules exist to facilitate a campaign focused on combat. So you think easy raising existing now is an example of making D&D more like an MMO? There are a few problems with this theory:1 -- Raising has always been as easy or as complex as the DM makes it. People were getting raised on a daily basis before the Apple IIe, and the new edition does not ignore this method of play. Indeed, it has been informed by this method of play, because it is focused on helping people have fun playing D&D. Most people don't have a lot of fun if the entire story of their game is ripped from it's tracks and put on something less-satisfying just because some die rolls didn't go your way that day. Easy raising facilitates storytelling because it allows the group to cut to the chase. For those who prefer more difficulty, the DMG's advice is "ignore the rules and have fun your way!" It sounds more like D&D is inspired by D&D in this case (which I think is very true of 3e in general), not by MMO's.2 -- Getting raised in D&D is often easier than getting raised in an MMO. In an MMO, time is money, time is XP, time is the one thing that stands between you and the ultimate goal of reaching the level cap. Thus, time spent recovering from death -- whether through XP penalties or some other method -- is time wasted. Time that the player will never get back. It is a permenant loss of power because it is a permenant loss of time and in an MMO, time = power. In D&D, the only comprable loss is a level, and the ability to regain it is dependant upon the DM's pacing. 3 -- When getting raised in D&D is NOT easier than getting raised in an MMO, it is utterly impossible without deus ex machina. For the first 2 levels, it is entirely outside of a PC's wealth range, and by the time it is within the wealth range, it represents a significant sacrifice roughly equal to a +1 weapon (which is ceratinly a big part of a PC's wealth for the first 5 or so levels). I understand that getting raised is only one example of this percieved "problem," but it, at least, is an example that doesn't hold up under close scrutiny, and thus is not a very good piece of evidence for this theory you have. A death in D&D is usually far less harmful than a death in an MMO, and the ease with which characters are revived is something that has been present in some games (indeed, perhaps even in the majority of games? WotC did do extensive customer research before developing these rules) since long before MMO's came to be.In a literary context, sometimes curses *are* just "debuffs." This is especially ture in a high-magic environment, where the nearest wizard is next door, not on the other side of the Impassable Peaks. If your son was turned into a frog varies greatly in severity depending upon the kind of world in which it happens.D&D is suggestive of that kind of world, where there are wizards living next door (or at most, on the other side of the kingdom). Demographic tables, the presence of monsters, and the existence of 20th-plus-level NPC's (admittedly as famous figures, but not out of the reach of the PC's) all suggest this. Thus, the ease in which a D&D "curse" (assuming you mean the spell bestow curse and not something more potent and more plot-based, like geas, or a cursed item or artifact) is removed reflects this idea of a believable world. Verisimilitude.This world is ultimately in control of the DM. As advised above in the DMG, if your desire is to create a great drama, ignore the rules and play the drama. The rules exist to support the play that needs rules the most -- the ones who aren't concerned as much with great drama. Those who *are* don't need the rules as much. Simultaneously, D&D characters have to deal with cursed items, cursed artifacts, and spells like geas, which more closely represent the feel of sturggling under a burden. Only some of these have the word "curse" in them, but this is no more than semantics. D&D has many methods of exploring this literary trope supported in the rules. If in a story the most powerful wizard in the land casts a dying curse on one who thwarted his plans, commanding him to forever seek a certain liche's phylactery and deliver it to him, in D&D, this is equivalent to a 20th level wizard using geas to do it. Having shown that the quality and power of the curse is simply a semantics and world-design issue (a handgun is more powerful in a world with cavemen than it is in a world with other guns, after all), it is not surprising that video games do similar. Debuffs exist in video games, and the names come, in many cases, after the mechanics -- call it a curse, call it a handicap, call it a MacGuffin, whatever. What is important in a video game is the mechanic, not the title of the mechanic.Video games like to have it both ways, though, and they are under no great burden to provide a coherent world like a DM is. So while they have debuffs they call curses, they also have things similar to geas that they call curses. In MMOs, this often involves quests (run this rock to point x in under 5 minutes and do it WHILE AT HALF LEVEL! MWAHAHA!). In more cinematic videogames (such as the FF series) it is entirely a plot point and doesn't affect the mechanics at all (it doesn't matter how many times use cast Esuna, they're still stone!). So the reality of this particular example is that D&D has "debuffs" it calls curses. It also has literary-style curses it calls curses (and also calls them geas). Removing the debuffs is as easy as finding the nearest bard or cleric (which can be very hard depending upon the DM's design); removing a geas by the most powerful wizard in the land is not so much small potatoes, though. Video games have debuffs they call curses. They also have plot devices and mission criteria that they call curses. Removing the debuffs is as simple as finding a healer-type. However, no one can heal you of plot points and quest requirements, Seriously, if geas was renamed CURSE and bestow curse was renamed, I dunno, INHIBIT ABILITY, would there even be a problem?No one thinks that LotR would be more interesting if the fellowship just poofed around. It is generally agreed that encounters on the way to accomplishing things allow tension to build. The official attitude, however, is NOT that they should be gone for the sake of expediency. The official attitude, as represented in the DMG is "if poofing around isn't fun for you, disable the poofing around, because the story is more important to you than the abilities, and that's okay."This is perhaps the biggest problem with accusing 3e of being "like a video game." I can't think of any video game where teleporting helped you advance anything, or where divination, I dunno, even EXISTED in any recognizable capacity. At best, teleportation removed you from the dungeon and back to a safe point, but that was only after you got the MacGuffin you needed to get in the dungeon (which is a way to cut to the chase that is rare to find in video games -- think of the original Final Fantasy's quest for the crown, where you fought your way into a den of poisonous swamp monsters, got the crown, and then had to fight all the way back out again...).High-level magic ruining your story? Get rid of it by playing low-magic or low-level. The DMG, the RAW, Monte Cook, encourages you to do this. It also warns you that some players might not like it, but everyone needs to find the players they are most comfortable with anyway. If ditching rules enriches you game, ditch them and be richer for it.Altenately, you can embrace these D&D-specific tropes (again, not from a video game influence) and use them to enrich your game. If you as a DM *need* point-A-to-point-B travelling adventures, ban travel magic, and go and have fun. If your mind is open to other kinds of styles, maybe you'll have fun in this other style, too. Much of the advice presented in another thread about using teleportation, loving the bomb, embracing the idea of not capturing PC's, was about asking you to be open-minded about the possibility of the dramatic potential that is achieved without taking away abilities from PC's. Asking you to consider the idea that teleportation does not remove danger. Video games are often built along point-A-to-point-B adventures themselves. Almost every FF game can be summed up as a series of traveling encounters leading to plot points. A large amount of quests in MMO's revolve around going someplace dangerous and getting some item and coming back to someplace safe and giving it to whoever wanted it. Most video games have only rudimentary teleportation and no divination. If you prefer that video game style, enjoy it.When two people have differing hypothesis, it is only by a comparison of evidence that they have any hope of being resolved. I don't intend to blame anyone for anything, but I do intend to challenge your hypothesis. Hence this LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG post.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" /></blockquote>

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