Who gets what?...Class Abilities

[steeldragons]

Fighters (applies also for Barbarians, Cavaliers, Paladins, Rangers and Warlords except as individually defined below):
-auto 10 hp/level or a d10 hp/level.
-Use of any armor.
-Use of any weapon.
-Increase Damage, regardless of strength or other bonuses, +1 every other level.
-Increase Attacks per round(with proficient weapons), regardless of other skills/themes, additional attack per round every 5 levels (5th, 10th, 15th and 20th) to a max of 4/round at 20th level.
-Optional Weapon/Fighting Styles (a Fighter may choose/take 1 @ 1st level and improve their bonuses or choose a different Style every other level):
---Dual-Wielding (2 attacks per round, note that Increased Attacks are still only 1 per 5 levels, not 1 per hand!);
---Bowman (bonuses to hit regardless of Dexterity, increased number of attacks/fast reloading, with archery/long/short bows or crossbows);
---"Sword" & Board (use any single handed weapon & shield to make and block attacks, increase AC more than just having a shield);
---Spearman (use spears & javelins thrown, single with shield and two-handed, with increased damage/effectivness, a trick or two);
---Axeman (bonus to thrown, single and two-handed axes, use of axes to increase AC/block attacks, a trick or two);
---Weapon Specialist/Master (increased damage and separate increased frequency of attacks with ONE weapon of choice).

Barbarian:
-auto 12 hp/lvl or d12 hp/lvl
-limited to light/soft armor (hides/furs, leather, studded leather; Ring mail & Scale mail permitted over 7th level).
-May take any Optional Fighting Style, except the Weapon Specialist/Master.
-Tracking and Wilderness Survival Skills
-Increase Resistance: +1 to saves/def. roles to mind-control magic, poisons, and fatigue/endurance. Additional +1 per 5 levels to max of +4 at 15th level.
-"Beserker Rage": increase HP, temporarily, by half the Barbarian's full hit points, regardless of the number of HPs possessed at the time of rage. +Barbarian's level to all damage rolls while in the rage. A Barbarian may "go Beserker" 1 time per day/per level. The Beserker Rage is able to last/be maintained Barbarian level + 3 rounds and may not "Rage" again for double that amount of time. The Barbarian may "calm" himself before the full amount of time has passed, but still may not work himself into a "Rage" frenzy again for double the amount of time he/she was raging.
[-If Alignment is used in game, I would want the restriction of "must be Chaotic", but that's not really the mechanics we're working with here]

Cavalier/Knight:
-Must wear "heavy" armor: Scale Mail, Chain mail, or (preferably) Plate mail. Receive no penalty to movement in heavy armor.
-May use any melee weapon but MUST carry (be proficient in, if weapon proficiencies are part of the game) some form of sword and spear or lance. Cavaliers may not use missile weapons.
-Riding Mastery and Political knowledge/Diplomacy skills.
-May take the following Optional Fighting Styles: Sword & Board, Spearman, or Weapon Specialist/Master
-Automatically receives the "Jouster" Fighting Style: use of lance, spear, any single-handed sword, and mace/morningstar/flail, from horseback without penalty, maybe a damage bonus?, a "Mounted Charge" mechanic?

Paladin:
-Paladins may use any melee weapon. They may not use missile weapons considering them "dishonorable" ways of doing battle/meting out justice, as do Cavaliers.
-Religious knowledge and Diplomacy skills.
-May take any of the following Optional Fighting Style: Sword and Board, Spearman, Axeman or Jouster.
-"Holy Aura": +1 to saves every other level (+2 @ 3rd, +3 @5th) to a maximum of +4 @ 7th level. The Aura effects the Paladin only @ 1st level and increases 5' radius/level every level thereafter. Attacks against the Paladin within/while the Holy Aura is in effect are -1 for every other level of the Paladin (same as their bonus) for all undead, devils and demons. The Holy Aura may be invoked 1 time per day/per level of the Paladin and lasts the Paladin Level+3 rounds. The Paladin does then not have the spiritual strength to invoke the Aura again for double the time the Holy Aura was active.
-"Lay on Hands": The Paladin is able to channel divine energy to heal wounds up to a total of 2 HP per Paladin level per day. These HP may be dispersed among however many people the Paladin wants. (Note: Offering or agreeing to heal non-believers or enemies of the Paladin's
faith/church is generally unlikely/not done.)
-"Turn Undead", see Clerics, beginning at 3rd level and effecting as a Cleric two levels lower than the Paladin's level. eg. A 3rd level Paladin Turns Undead as a 1st level Cleric.
-"Detect Lie", once per day per level, the Paladin may concentrate on a particular person and their statements and accurately detect lies that are being spoken. This effect lasts for the Paladin Level+1 round.
[-If Alignment is used in game, I would want the restriction of "must be Lawful", but that's not really the mechanics we're working with here]

Ranger:
-auto 12 HP/lvl or d12 hp/lvl
-weapons and armor allowances and all Optional Fighting Styles are all as per the Fighter.
-Tracking and Wilderness Survival Skills
-Automatically receives the "Ambusher" Fighting style (as long as they are in Chain Mail or lesser armor): Hide/cover themselves in outdoor settings, some kind of "Surprise" mechanic?, receive double the Ranger's usual number of attacks for the first round of their "Ambush"?
-Herbalist Healer: the Ranger is able to gather and prepare natural herb-based remedies and minor first aid for most injuries. The Ranger is able to heal 2 HP of damage per Ranger level. These HP may be spread out among as many people as the Ranger wants. The Herbalist healing
requires 1 round of time/attention from the Ranger per 1 HP being healed.

Warlord:
-May take any Optional Fighting Style for Fighters, plus Jouster or Ambusher.
-Increased Resistance: +1 to saves vs. mind-controlling, fear, and confusion magics and effects. Additional +1 per 5 levels to a max of +4 at 15th level.
-"Assuring Presence": Through their inspiring presence, the Warlord's save bonus from their "Increased Resistance" ability is able to be applied to those within the area of effect, 5' per Warlord level. This air of confidence also attributes a Temporary 4 HP to everyone, including the Warlord, within the area of effect. The Warlord is able to generate this area of reassurance once per day per Warlord level. The Assuring Presence lasts for the Warlord level +3 rounds, and may not be "inspiring" again for double the amount of time it was in effect.
-"Field Medic": Through use of first aid and basic knowledge of the body, the Warlord is able to restore 2 HP per day per level. These HPs may be dispersed among however many people the Warlord wishes. The "Field Medic" healing requires 1 round of medical/bandaging attention from the Warlord for every 1 HP being healed.

How about y'all? How about other classes?

 

[Ratinyourwalls]

I really disagree with your take on the Barbarian. 4E did a really good job of making a solid difference between the Fighter and Barbarian. If you want to play a Fighter who gets really angry , then just play a fighter who gets really angry.

Barbarians should be the dudes who channel the nature spirits to go on wide swathes of destruction rather than a strange mix of Ranger and Fighter. Their rages should be supernatural in origin and their alternate features should be based on where they get these "rage powers".

There is a lot of interest out there for a supernatural rager that the martial version of a Barbarian just doesn't quite scratch.

 

[Raith5]

I really disagree with your take on the Barbarian. 4E did a really good job of making a solid difference between the Fighter and Barbarian. If you want to play a Fighter who gets really angry , then just play a fighter who gets really angry.

Barbarians should be the dudes who channel the nature spirits to go on wide swathes of destruction rather than a strange mix of Ranger and Fighter. Their rages should be supernatural in origin and their alternate features should be based on where they get these "rage powers".

There is a lot of interest out there for a supernatural rager that the martial version of a Barbarian just doesn't quite scratch.

I think there should be both a martial barbarian and Primal barbarian. The rage mechanic is a quintessential martial mechanic which can be explained in mundane terms of fury and toughness, but the 4th ed was not mundane, it was more like a Spirit Warrior.

Basically, I really like the 4th barbarian as an archetype but I miss Conan

 

[mkill]

[MENTION=92511]steeldragons[/MENTION]: I'm sorry, but you already lost me at rolling for hit points. I know "this is how we did it back in the 70ies", but I just don't see any advantage in play. It makes meat shield characters a hit-or-miss to generate, it encourages player whining or cheating, it makes "come back next week with fully leveled characters" an issue... Really, there are much better ways to invoke old school nostalgia.

And then you just list whatever fighters and other melee classes had in older editions, but don't give any interesting incentive to play them. "Whack orc with sword every round" does not get more interesting with "whack 4 orcs with sword every round." Can't you come up with anything?

Especially when both enemies and allies of the fighter can fly, teleport, breathe fire, freeze me in ice, turn me to stone, switch to another plane, summon angels...

I don't mind playing "badass normal" in D&D. I'm fine with a character that doesn't breathe fire, fly and teleport. But when I play a fighter (rogue, barbarian...) I need to feel eye-to-eye with puny wizards who rely on magic to do cool stuff. At high levels, I don't want to "swing sword really fast", I want to wrestle hydras, jump over cliffs, throw my sword at the eye of the Illithid.

You don't deliver the badass. If this is your 5E, don't expect me to switch from an edition that does.

 

[Gadget]

So, basically, you want 3e with a few tweeks? No thanks.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Fighter- d10 hp
- the best with all weapons and armor


Thief -d6 hp
- mediocre martial ability
- good at scouting

Cleric -d8 hp
- decent martial ability
- uses divine magic/potent vs the undead

Magic User - d6 hp
- poor martial ability
- knows lots of stuff
- uses arcane magic



Add themes and flavorful abilities to taste.

 

[mkill]

Fighter
- the best with all weapons and armor
- Choose between offensive / defensive / leadership / ranged path
- Good at athletics, horsemanship, leadership

Thief
- top-tier martial ability (sniping or fencing)
- good at scouting or good at social skills

Cleric
- decent martial ability or purely divine combat casting
- uses divine magic to heal / buff / summon
- potent vs the undead if it fits the deity

Magic User
- poor martial ability
- knows lots of stuff
- uses arcane magic specialized on a school

 

[steeldragons]

I really disagree with your take on the Barbarian. -snip-

Barbarians should be the dudes who channel the nature spirits to go on wide swathes of destruction rather than a strange mix of Ranger and Fighter. Their rages should be supernatural in origin and their alternate features should be based on where they get these "rage powers".

There is a lot of interest out there for a supernatural rager that the martial version of a Barbarian just doesn't quite scratch.

Your definition of a spirit-channeling warrior does not, to me, sound like the Barbarian archetype, as I understand it. No offense intended, of course. A Shaman, sure. A certain kind of Druid, perhaps. Even, as Raith5 said, I could see it as a Native-American-esque Spirit/Totem-invoking warrior. Those are all cool, but they're not really "martial" types.

But I think Conan, Fafrhd and Beowulf would argue, it's not a "barbarian" in D&D archetypal game terms.

One of my biggest hopes for 5e/DnDNext, is for the Martial classes to be "Martial" not "Magical/Supernatural". For them to be cool, have cool stuff to do without "Magic powers". I want "Non-caster" and "Caster" classes to be just that.

The Paladin (on the Fighter side) and the Bard (on the Rogue side) ought to be the exceptions to those subclasses, not the rule for all class archetypes. You may or may not have noticed that I didn't suggest giving the Paladin and Ranger (nor any of the others) any sort of "spell use". That's just my preference/hope for the new edition.

Make the martial warriors and rogues great at what they do. Give them abilities that will scale with level and skills that will make them better at xyz than the Caster classes...sure, the casters will have some skills and some magics that might do some things faster or "supernaturally well", but that's what they have magic for. It does (or should) not make them "better" at stuff than the non-casters.

I think there should be both a martial barbarian and Primal barbarian. The rage mechanic is a quintessential martial mechanic which can be explained in mundane terms of fury and toughness, but the 4th ed was not mundane, it was more like a Spirit Warrior.

Basically, I really like the 4th barbarian as an archetype but I miss Conan

Just so. And I have no problem with variants of any/all classes being introduced somewhere in some supplement/expansion module/Greatest Mystic Warriors Complete Battle Book type thing. But for the beginning initial release, the "base" class of martial types should not have "supernatural" abilities (again, with Paladins as the exception, since Laying on Hands, Dt. Evil and being "better" at fighting demons & devils has always been their thing/part of their archetype and class.)

@steeldragons : I'm sorry, but you already lost me at rolling for hit points. I know "this is how we did it back in the 70ies", but I just don't see any advantage in play.

You seem to have missed the "or." I wasn't saying one way or the other. Assuming that the rules will give us options in this avenue to suit people's references. I have no trouble with Ftr's getting an automatic 10 HP per level.

My own homebrew, for years and years, I have given automatic max hit points at first level and then roll after that...but I also, almost invariably, let the players re-roll if they get a 1 or a 2...espcially if they are a big brawny fighter-type.

I would have no objections to the game stating, these are the HP you get every level (+Con bonus, I'd assume). But apologies if that came across as unclear. I was not asserting one way or the other to do it. Just laying down the HD I think each class should have.

It makes meat shield characters a hit-or-miss to generate, it encourages player whining or cheating, it makes "come back next week with fully leveled characters" an issue... Really, there are much better ways to invoke old school nostalgia.

True. Again, I was not advocating having to roll. Just putting it out there as an option if that's what people prefer.

And then you just list whatever fighters and other melee classes had in older editions, but don't give any interesting incentive to play them. "Whack orc with sword every round" does not get more interesting with "whack 4 orcs with sword every round."

Why not? Seems to me, people that want to play Fighter/Warrior types want to hit stuff. They want to do more damage and say HA killed it in one blow! Which, seems to me, an increasingly high level warrior typew should be able to do without requiring tons of extra feats or skills or specialization.

What would you come up with, without using "magical powers" that you would like to see added to the fighter-types as automatic (or gained through increasing levels). If I'd added in "Pick 1 extra Non-combat Skill (or Theme, since we know we're going to have Themes) at 1st level and pick other extras every other or every third level? That would have made you more happy? That's so much more interesting for playing warrior-types?

Can't you come up with anything?

Easy there. I can come up with quite a lot, thank you. Simply because I did not specify a "Come and Get it" automatic power/rule does not mean it might not be available in the game. I was trying to go fairly "bare bones that capture a feel/archetype" without going crazy, pages long, with all kinds of additional "powers."

Especially when both enemies and allies of the fighter can fly, teleport, breathe fire, freeze me in ice, turn me to stone, switch to another plane, summon angels...

Ugh. This again. "The casters can do xyz so why can't I?" Play a caster class then! Multiclass/play a hybrid class! If I want to play "Conan" why am/should I be concerned about picking between dozens of extra "magical" powers? Or a Lancelot-type? Or a Mad Morrigan? Tanis Half-Elven? Even a burgeoning "sword master" kinda Soka guy (from Avatar:the Last Airbender) straight off some piddly village on the glacier?

I don't mind playing "badass normal" in D&D. I'm fine with a character that doesn't breathe fire, fly and teleport. But when I play a fighter (rogue, barbarian...) I need to feel eye-to-eye with puny wizards who rely on magic to do cool stuff. At high levels, I don't want to "swing sword really fast", I want to wrestle hydras, jump over cliffs, throw my sword at the eye of the Illithid.

And where in my presentation did I ever say or even suggest that you couldn't/shouldn't be able to do any of those things? This was a kind of "bare bones/starting at 1st level"...high level stuff, will no doubt come.

You don't deliver the badass. If this is your 5E, don't expect me to switch from an edition that does.

I wouldn't dream of it. So, to the point of the thread, what abilities would you build into the classes to make them...as you say, "badass", as you understand the necessity of the word?

Fighter
- the best with all weapons and armor
- Choose between offensive / defensive / leadership / ranged path
- Good at athletics, horsemanship, leadership

Thief
- top-tier martial ability (sniping or fencing)
- good at scouting or good at social skills

Cleric
- decent martial ability or purely divine combat casting
- uses divine magic to heal / buff / summon
- potent vs the undead if it fits the deity

Magic User
- poor martial ability
- knows lots of stuff
- uses arcane magic specialized on a school

Thanks (to [MENTION=66434]ExploderWizard[/MENTION], as well) for playing along.
--SD

 

[Minigiant]

Warrior Classes (High attack rating, simple and military weapons, light and medium armor, Athletic skills, High HP)

• Fighter: Heavy armor + Combat versatility + Access to All Stances + & Social skills
• Barbarian: Rage + Two Handed & Polearm weapon Stance + Wilderness skills
• Paladin: Heavy armor + Lay on Hands healing + Smite + Social skills
• Ranger: Herbal OR Divine/Primal healing + Finesse, Ranged & Two Weapon Stances + Wilderness & Stealth skills
• Warlord: Heavy armor + Temporary HP Words + Knowledge & Social skills

Adept Classes (decent attack rating, simple weapons, light armor, Social and Knowledge Skills, Good HP)

• Cleric: Medium & Heavy Armor + Divine spells + Turn undead
• Druid: Medium armor + Divine/Primal spells + Shape shifting + Animal companion + Wilderness skill
• Warlock: Pact magic + Curse + Some arcane magic, Stealth skills

Thief classes (decent attack rating, simple weapons, light armor, Evasion Athletic, Social, Stealth, and Thievery Skills, Below Average HP)

• Rogue: Sneak Attack + Finesse, Two weapons, & Ranged Stance
• Assassin: Assassination attack + Finesse & Ranged Stance + Arcane spells
• Bard: Bard song + Some Divine/Arcane/Primal magic + Finesse Stance
• Monk: Ki strike + Unarmed Stances + Bonus HP

Mage classes (poor attack rating, junk weapons, no armor, Knowledge Skills, Poor HP, Arcane spells)

• Wizard: Familiar + Metamagic
• Sorcerer: Bloodline + Spontaneous Casting
• Priest: Divine spells

 

[steeldragons]

Cleric (includes Druids, Shamans and Priests except where noted below):
-automatic 8 HP/level or d8 HP/lvl
-any armor
-Limited to bludgeoning/blunt weapons: mace, hammer, morningstar, flail, staff, club/cudgel. Optional Add-on: the Cleric may also choose the "preferred"/mythologic/symbolic weapon of their deity, if they have one: bows for clerics of Artemis, spears for clerics of Cu'Chulain, etc.
-Religious Knowledge and [mundane] Healing Skills (if deity appropriate, other deity relevant skills as applicable: History or Languages, for example, for a god of history and knowledge or Military History and tactics for a god of war)
-Divine Magic Spell use (optionally categorized by Spheres/Domains matching the deity's areas of interest/influence if they go that way).
-"Turn Undead": One per day per level, the Cleric may invoke the "holy might" of their deity/faith to effect the creatures of the undead and other extra-planar creatures. (If Alignment is to be used in the game, this is limited to creatures of opposing alignment to the Cleric). See [hypothetical] Turning table to determine the number of HD of creatures effected and how they are effected (Halted, Turned or Destroyed/Returned to their plane of origin).

Druid
-limited to light (non-metal) armors (hides/furs, leather, "natural scale", etc.)
-limited to weaponry as follows: club/cudgel, dagger/knife, scimitar, scythe, sickle, spear, staff, sling.
-Increased Resistance: +1 to saves versus elemental energies: fire/heat, ice/cold, and lightning. This bonus increases every 5 levels to a max of +4 (above, beyond, despite any other protections) at 15th level.
-Animal and Plant Lore/Knowledge and Wilderness Survival skills.
-"Nature" Magic Spell Use.
-"Nature's Tongue" -The Druid may also select a single type of normal creature with which they can Speak with Animals (as the spell of the same name). This may be "wolves" or "lions" or "snakes" or even as broad as, say "songbirds" or "birds of prey", but should not be so wide a classification as "Mammals" or "Reptiles" or "Any Feline", "All Birds", etc. [at the DM's discretion, of course]. The Druid may expand/select a different kind of animal every 3rd level (3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, and, finally, 15th).
-"Elemental Command" -Druids may not Turn/have no power over the Undead or Demons or Devils. They may, however, use the Turning Table to effect conjured/summoned Elemental Creatures (fire, water, air or earth) to attempt to return them to the plane on which they "belong." (Note, if Alignment is being used in the game, the alignment of the elemental creature/being is of no consequence to the Druid's attempt).
-"Shapeshift" -[everyone's favorite, overused and made waaaaay to accessible druid trick, imho. Gonna try to reign that back in a bit]. Once per day and increasing +1 times every other Druid level (3rd, 5th, etc) to a maximum of 5 times per day @ 9th level, the Druid may shapechange into a natural animal of their choice. While so changed, the Druid has all of the abilities and attacks (flying, breathing under water, climbing, enhanced senses, claws, antlers, etc.) of that creature and can converse freely with other animals of that type.

The Druid possesses the ability to heal themselves through this transformation, 2 HP per druid level. The HP may be applied in any amount when turning into the animal shape and/or also when shifting back to one's normal form, as desired by the Druid, so long as the daily maximum of 2 HP/level per day is not exceeded.

The transformation lasts for the Druid's Level +3 rounds. A Druid may not Shapeshift again until double the amount of time has passed in this normal shape. Nor may they jump directly from one animal shape to another without returning to their normal shape until achieving 10th level. At 10th level, however, the limitation to 5 different shapeshiftings per day still applies, just that they can go straight from one animal shape to another (and apply their healing as desired through any of the transformations).

Priests
- HD is 6 instead of 8.
- no armor.
- limited weaponry: staff, rod/club/cudgel, dagger/knife.
- additional Diplomatic/Interaction skills.
- Divine Magic Spell Use: receives an additional +1 spell per tier (spell level) per day. In the event of any "variable effects" (duration, area of effect, damage, etc.) that are part of the spell description, the Priest's spells are always at their FULL possible effect for the Priest's caster level.
- "Ceremonial Magic": The Priest may conduct one Ceremony per day to duplicate any spell to which the Priest has access OR is one tier/spell level higher than the Priest's highest spell level. i.e. A Priest capable of casting 2nd level spells may use their Ceremonial Casting to perform/duplicate a 3rd level Divine spell effect (which they would normally/eventually gain access to. i.e. within the Priest's permitted Spheres/Domains if such a system is used). This ritual casting requires 1 hour of preparation and meditation. The length of the actual conducting/casting is as per the spell being invoked. The effects of the spell are the same as per the spell description for a caster of the Priest's level. Also for the conducting of other "Ritual Magic/Spells" [assuming such a thing/if Ritual spells exist in the new game] the time and cost of the Ritual is halved for the Priest.