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Who wrote these CRs?
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<blockquote data-quote="Sunseeker" data-source="post: 6720761"><p>The Monster Manual is <em>full </em>of creative monsters. Well, not really. It's pretty much full of the lock-stock-and-barrel monsters we've seen in editions past. Of course, that's what we asked so, so that's what we got. But really, who wrote some of these CRs? I just saw a level 17 Warlock take down a Solar with a single spell. It was the only spell cast. </p><p></p><p>A dragon can't dish it, but it can take it. A Solar can dish it, but it can't take it. A Kraken has like 3 attacks. </p><p></p><p>I can't help but feeling like we got a book full of half-baked monsters. Maybe it's just the high-level stuff. Which wouldn't surprise me considering how all of the campaigns stop at ~lvl15 and we've gotten official tweets that WOTC has no real interest in supporting the remaining 5 levels of their game since "most games end before that".</p><p></p><p>I honestly don't need the MM to give me stats for Kobolds or Goblins or Orcs. They haven't substantially changed in the last 20 years. At least, I don't need a <em>new </em>MM for that. They're +/- a level 1 fighter who's ugly.</p><p></p><p>My campaign, which is currently high level, was essentially shut down last night after 2 hours of gameplay for the simple reason that I relied on WOTC material that was designed to be a challenge. I have 3 players, two of whom did nothing in this fight. I took one moment to <em>not</em> custom-build some content and it lead to my game getting utterly wrecked. I had just previously run a completely custom-designed kraken encounter against the same party and it was a blast! But only because I made sure it was an appropriate challenge to what my players could dish out. This other encounter was first against a 20th level cleric NPC who at least put up a good fight, and was designed to when they died, reincarnate as a Solar. Apparently a Solar is <em>less</em> powerful than a 20th level cleric. I don't see how it can be a CR 21, designed to combat a part of 4 at roughly +/-lvl 20 themselves. Am I reading CR wrong? Isn't an appropriate challenge supposed to be ~ equal to total party level divided by ~4?</p><p></p><p>I'm not really sure what my point is in writing this, I'm not sure how many of you run higher-level games. But is anyone else seriously disappointed in the high-level NPC material? I swear the only time I played in a game where we <em>lost</em> to monsters straight from the book was when we were playing with those absolute morons I mentioned some time ago. Otherwise I would at best say CR, for players who aren't completely incompetent is more on par with 1/3 or even 1/2 CR = average party level. I've heard similar reports about Tiamat proving equally unchallenging and I'm just kinda wondering at this point:</p><p></p><p>Does WOTC care? Are they even interested in supporting the <em>whole</em> of their game? How can a business get away with that? I just don't get it, if any MMO launched with similar high-level support it would be dead within a month. This is why I quit 3rd/Pathfinder, CRs were meaningless, you had to do way too much work to run a game and anything high-level was just completely unbalanced. I'm considering dropping 5th after this and going back to running 4E.</p><p></p><p>Anyway, bit a complaint, bit of a rant, still want to hear your guys thoughts, but really I'm starting to ask myself why I'm paying for someone else to tell me to do it myself?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Sunseeker, post: 6720761"] The Monster Manual is [I]full [/I]of creative monsters. Well, not really. It's pretty much full of the lock-stock-and-barrel monsters we've seen in editions past. Of course, that's what we asked so, so that's what we got. But really, who wrote some of these CRs? I just saw a level 17 Warlock take down a Solar with a single spell. It was the only spell cast. A dragon can't dish it, but it can take it. A Solar can dish it, but it can't take it. A Kraken has like 3 attacks. I can't help but feeling like we got a book full of half-baked monsters. Maybe it's just the high-level stuff. Which wouldn't surprise me considering how all of the campaigns stop at ~lvl15 and we've gotten official tweets that WOTC has no real interest in supporting the remaining 5 levels of their game since "most games end before that". I honestly don't need the MM to give me stats for Kobolds or Goblins or Orcs. They haven't substantially changed in the last 20 years. At least, I don't need a [I]new [/I]MM for that. They're +/- a level 1 fighter who's ugly. My campaign, which is currently high level, was essentially shut down last night after 2 hours of gameplay for the simple reason that I relied on WOTC material that was designed to be a challenge. I have 3 players, two of whom did nothing in this fight. I took one moment to [I]not[/I] custom-build some content and it lead to my game getting utterly wrecked. I had just previously run a completely custom-designed kraken encounter against the same party and it was a blast! But only because I made sure it was an appropriate challenge to what my players could dish out. This other encounter was first against a 20th level cleric NPC who at least put up a good fight, and was designed to when they died, reincarnate as a Solar. Apparently a Solar is [I]less[/I] powerful than a 20th level cleric. I don't see how it can be a CR 21, designed to combat a part of 4 at roughly +/-lvl 20 themselves. Am I reading CR wrong? Isn't an appropriate challenge supposed to be ~ equal to total party level divided by ~4? I'm not really sure what my point is in writing this, I'm not sure how many of you run higher-level games. But is anyone else seriously disappointed in the high-level NPC material? I swear the only time I played in a game where we [I]lost[/I] to monsters straight from the book was when we were playing with those absolute morons I mentioned some time ago. Otherwise I would at best say CR, for players who aren't completely incompetent is more on par with 1/3 or even 1/2 CR = average party level. I've heard similar reports about Tiamat proving equally unchallenging and I'm just kinda wondering at this point: Does WOTC care? Are they even interested in supporting the [I]whole[/I] of their game? How can a business get away with that? I just don't get it, if any MMO launched with similar high-level support it would be dead within a month. This is why I quit 3rd/Pathfinder, CRs were meaningless, you had to do way too much work to run a game and anything high-level was just completely unbalanced. I'm considering dropping 5th after this and going back to running 4E. Anyway, bit a complaint, bit of a rant, still want to hear your guys thoughts, but really I'm starting to ask myself why I'm paying for someone else to tell me to do it myself? [/QUOTE]
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