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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Shalewind" data-source="post: 619431" data-attributes="member: 6146">Okay. I know that the book of Vile Darkness isn't a core level book, but it does have the stamp of Monte Cook and Bruce Cordell. Now for some background:I've always had a problem with pins in the grappling rules. Primarily that you can't do much with a pin. Pinning an opponent results in: (From the SRD)"Pin: A character can hold an opponent immobile for 1 round. (If a character gets multiple attacks, the character can use subsequent attacks to damage the opponent. A character can't use a weapon on a pinned opponent or attempt to damage or pin a second opponent while holding a pin on the first.) While a character is pinned, opponents other than the one pinning the character get a +4 bonus on attack rolls against the character (but the character is not helpless)."So basically, you hold him still (but not too still because he can still move enough to not be considered helpless) and you sacrifice the ability to hit him with a light weapon (as you can't use any weapons on a pinned opponent). You can't move the opponent and your friends can't Coup de Grace him because he isn't helpless.Alright, I didn't have a big problem with this at first. Then I realized that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for a group of people in grapple to not be able to hold someone helpless. So I posted here and Corwin was nice enough to help me come up with a nifty little system. (<a href="http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20711" target="_blank">http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20711</a>)Then I read about torture in the Book of Vile Darkness. Whoa! Here we go:"The torturer's victim must first be secured, either by being tied in place, pinned in a grapple, or successfully restrained in a stationary torture device." Okay sounds fair. It goes on to say that Escape Artist rolls or opposed grapple rolls can be made to escape as normal except:"If the victim attempts an Escape Artist check or grapple check in the knowing presence of the torturer, whether or not the check succeeds the torturer can hit the creature with a coup de grace."WTF! Okay, so this seems to be saying that as long as you have a creature pinned, and somebody whom isn't threatened by eminent combat can just watch the whole thing, they can coup de grace pretty much as they wish. But remember... pinned creatures aren't helpless... So this ruling creates a problem. I foresee a couple of ways to deal with it:1) The Core Rules are correct and Monte and Bruce were all not thinking when they did this.2) This only applies to people who are actually in the presence of a torturer (which would be an extremely silly interpretation IMHO).3) Pins in grapple were meant to be handled this way, but might have been changed for balance reasons. The Book of Vile Darkness tries to bring some of the grit back.Personally I believe in option 3. This would have to be a judgement call on any DM's part on whether they like some more realism or more heroic fantasy. This would make grappling a lot more powerful, but then again, I think it should be powerful. Comments? Disputes?</blockquote>

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