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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7005677" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>Neither of those require 4e, as the seeds of them were in 3.x, already. The cadence of play in 3.x began to include (very) short rests between combats to apply wands or other healing resources, while arcane casters needed an 8 hr rest to prep spells. Further complicated by divine casters 'dining' at a certain time of day, and items possibly having yet another form of daily schedule. So your two-rest recovery economy could have been just a simplification of 3e. </p><p></p><p>First of all, 5e doesn't used fixed damage expressions, per se (though some spells have always done fixed damage - ice storm, for instance), rather it scales with slot level. 3.x already used caps and already based DCs on slot level. Basing damage as well or instead of DC on slot level instead of caster level could as easily have 'evolved' from that.</p><p></p><p>In theory, yes, over a long & unpredictable enough day, they 'balance.' That was also the case in 3e, there just wasn't a clearly-articulated guideline. </p><p></p><p>3e equalized level progression in terms of exp/level for all classes, equalizing attack/skill progression, also, is a natural outgrowth of that. 5e did less of it than 4e did, so it could more easily have followed 3e.</p><p></p><p>Heck, if you gave an alien archaeologist the rules of each system and asked him to estimate their place in a clear progression, the only clue that 5e followed 4e /might/ be Adv/Dis. Everything else points to 5e being intermediary between 2e and 4e. </p><p></p><p>I'll agree it's closer than most would credit - probably that's because familiarity with Essentials is pretty limited. But there's an obvious reason: Mearls led the development of both, right?</p><p></p><p>In another post you pegged closed-scene resolution as a late 90s innovation. </p><p></p><p>Champions! had BBEG supervillains (like Dr Destroyer) meant to challenge whole teams, and they were designed differently from villains who worked in teams like the PCs. Besides, 3e encounter design defaulted to a single same-level monster challenging the party. </p><p></p><p>If you want to look at secondary roles, minion is newer to D&D than the Solo. Thing is, it's nothing new to RPGs. </p><p></p><p>I'll grant you that as a new-to-D&D innovation, too.</p><p></p><p>But, since 5e hasn't continued the most striking new-to-D&D examples, like SCs, it's hard to argue they point to 5e having clearly developed from 4e rather than 2e & 3e. </p><p></p><p>Couched as 'borrowing' rather than 'innovating' that sounds fair.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7005677, member: 996"] Neither of those require 4e, as the seeds of them were in 3.x, already. The cadence of play in 3.x began to include (very) short rests between combats to apply wands or other healing resources, while arcane casters needed an 8 hr rest to prep spells. Further complicated by divine casters 'dining' at a certain time of day, and items possibly having yet another form of daily schedule. So your two-rest recovery economy could have been just a simplification of 3e. First of all, 5e doesn't used fixed damage expressions, per se (though some spells have always done fixed damage - ice storm, for instance), rather it scales with slot level. 3.x already used caps and already based DCs on slot level. Basing damage as well or instead of DC on slot level instead of caster level could as easily have 'evolved' from that. In theory, yes, over a long & unpredictable enough day, they 'balance.' That was also the case in 3e, there just wasn't a clearly-articulated guideline. 3e equalized level progression in terms of exp/level for all classes, equalizing attack/skill progression, also, is a natural outgrowth of that. 5e did less of it than 4e did, so it could more easily have followed 3e. Heck, if you gave an alien archaeologist the rules of each system and asked him to estimate their place in a clear progression, the only clue that 5e followed 4e /might/ be Adv/Dis. Everything else points to 5e being intermediary between 2e and 4e. I'll agree it's closer than most would credit - probably that's because familiarity with Essentials is pretty limited. But there's an obvious reason: Mearls led the development of both, right? In another post you pegged closed-scene resolution as a late 90s innovation. Champions! had BBEG supervillains (like Dr Destroyer) meant to challenge whole teams, and they were designed differently from villains who worked in teams like the PCs. Besides, 3e encounter design defaulted to a single same-level monster challenging the party. If you want to look at secondary roles, minion is newer to D&D than the Solo. Thing is, it's nothing new to RPGs. I'll grant you that as a new-to-D&D innovation, too. But, since 5e hasn't continued the most striking new-to-D&D examples, like SCs, it's hard to argue they point to 5e having clearly developed from 4e rather than 2e & 3e. Couched as 'borrowing' rather than 'innovating' that sounds fair. [/QUOTE]
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