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<blockquote data-quote="Helldritch" data-source="post: 7888567" data-attributes="member: 6855114">The buffs he talks about are the reasons the 5MWD happened. Without the 5MWD, no CoDzilla. The problem was not the buffs per see, but the fact that with the 5MWD a fight supposed to challenge the players had to be on par with them. Then the players, having a rough time, had to buff themselves even more. In return, the DM had to push it a bit further in planning to challenge the players again and so on and on and on. No wonders some had to have a spreadsheet with all the buffs...With a DM in control of the 5MWD, that is: &quot;he eliminates it from his table&quot;; the need for endless buffs dissipates. I know of some tables where every players had Bull's strength or Cat's grace or whatever other stat needed to be buffed. Then they would chant, bless, pray, haste, stone skin and many other possible buffs for one fight. And the higher the party, the more of these spells they would have.One trick to end the 5MWD I gave to quite a few DMs is to have the vilain set up a room where the players will fight him. The villain will flee, leaving the players with his minions to fight. Then a few hours later, the villain knows the players do not have their buffs anymore and they are probably weakened. He then hunts them down. At high level, this can be deadly for the players. A lich launching meteor swarms at the same it did its own CoDzilla (a mage could do that too) will destroy the group. It could even clone/raise them and put them in stasis to prevent unwanted resurrection (after all, you can't raise what is already living, even if it is in stasis... or even sicker, transform them into ghouls. Now the group is toast...). The 5MWD had its place, once in a while. Who doesn't like a big bad brawl? But it had to be a sparse thing, not the norm. The 5 MWD being out of the equation, no need for spread sheets... (I hate Excel anyways...).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Helldritch, post: 7888567, member: 6855114"] The buffs he talks about are the reasons the 5MWD happened. Without the 5MWD, no CoDzilla. The problem was not the buffs per see, but the fact that with the 5MWD a fight supposed to challenge the players had to be on par with them. Then the players, having a rough time, had to buff themselves even more. In return, the DM had to push it a bit further in planning to challenge the players again and so on and on and on. No wonders some had to have a spreadsheet with all the buffs... With a DM in control of the 5MWD, that is: "he eliminates it from his table"; the need for endless buffs dissipates. I know of some tables where every players had Bull's strength or Cat's grace or whatever other stat needed to be buffed. Then they would chant, bless, pray, haste, stone skin and many other possible buffs for one fight. And the higher the party, the more of these spells they would have. One trick to end the 5MWD I gave to quite a few DMs is to have the vilain set up a room where the players will fight him. The villain will flee, leaving the players with his minions to fight. Then a few hours later, the villain knows the players do not have their buffs anymore and they are probably weakened. He then hunts them down. At high level, this can be deadly for the players. A lich launching meteor swarms at the same it did its own CoDzilla (a mage could do that too) will destroy the group. It could even clone/raise them and put them in stasis to prevent unwanted resurrection (after all, you can't raise what is already living, even if it is in stasis... or even sicker, transform them into ghouls. Now the group is toast...). The 5MWD had its place, once in a while. Who doesn't like a big bad brawl? But it had to be a sparse thing, not the norm. The 5 MWD being out of the equation, no need for spread sheets... (I hate Excel anyways...). [/QUOTE]

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