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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
Why 3.5 Worked
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<blockquote data-quote="Bacon Bits" data-source="post: 7889256" data-attributes="member: 6777737"><p>No, but I think that depends on your definition of "broken", too. I don't think a TTRPG exists that doesn't have some fatal flaw or critical issue that means "you should probably not play it" for some group of players.</p><p></p><p>The interaction of all the myriad of elements in 3.x results in a pretty fatally flawed game experience, though it's at least a <em>designed</em> game compared to AD&D and prior editions and the major flaws can go for quite awhile if you limit optional material or have players who aren't interested in system mastery.</p><p></p><p>The base design of 4e is very good, but the "treadmill effect" is a noted problem and the complexity of combat can distract from the other elements of the game, too. The discrepancy between classes (e.g., Martial is fairly dominant, IMX) is storied and extensive.</p><p></p><p>Savage Worlds is simple and straightforward, but the system is built to emphasize pulpy campaigns and fast play, and there's a small math problem with exploding dice and successes. Namely, a target number of 8 (a double success) is easier to roll on an exploding d6 (13.9%) than a d8 (12.5%). The solution is as simple as substracting 1 from any die that has exploded at least once, but that's fiddley and nobody is ever going to do it because simplicity is the name of the game. Also the deck-of-cards-based initiative, while fantastic for Deadlands, is just cumbersome for a generic system.</p><p></p><p>Conan 2d20 is simple, but the round robin initiative combined with complication/doom/momentum/expertise/focus system seems to be built for the players to abuse. If you want the PCs to feel powerful and capable it's great, but that may not be the best system otherwise. The books are horribly arranged, too, and the rules in general are poorly explained. If there's one game that desperately needs a revised edition -- especially with magic -- it's Modiphius Conan 2d20.</p><p></p><p>Most Star Wars TTRPGs (especially d20 and SAGA) are fairly balanced... except that Jedi are almost always absurdly OP especially as you progress. And if you're not playing a Jedi, it kind of makes you question, "why am I playing Star Wars?"</p><p></p><p>Fate is a great game, but it requires players that want to have control over the narrative more directly, and that like the idea of Fate's collaborative character creation and campaign. I don't remember if you can even create characters later on after the fact, which is kind of a big flaw.</p><p></p><p>Dice pool RPGs (WEG d6, Shadowrun, Storytelling) are a lot of fun to roll, but a huge pain in the butt to manage and easy to make mistakes with. The Storytelling system in particular seemed to really highlight how awkward the system was because the only reason to play the game was the amazing lore. The fact that the game died after they "reset" the lore is a big sign of a fatally flawed game system.</p><p></p><p>5e D&D is simple (for D&D) and works fairly well, but it's not always very deep in spite of it's quantity of rules. Some of the design decisions (i.e., weak encounter difficulty due to short rest system) lead to sometimes questionable outcomes as well, and there's a few uneven spots where designs just don't work all that well (Beastmaster, polymorph, stealth). A focus on pre-published encounters that all play similarly (epic storyline covering entire campaign) can lead to samey-ness if you lack DMs that want to express their own creativity.</p><p></p><p>If you're looking for a perfect TTRPG, then I'm sure it doesn't exist. Like everything else, it's about tradeoffs. That's why your groups should play different games all the time.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Bacon Bits, post: 7889256, member: 6777737"] No, but I think that depends on your definition of "broken", too. I don't think a TTRPG exists that doesn't have some fatal flaw or critical issue that means "you should probably not play it" for some group of players. The interaction of all the myriad of elements in 3.x results in a pretty fatally flawed game experience, though it's at least a [I]designed[/I] game compared to AD&D and prior editions and the major flaws can go for quite awhile if you limit optional material or have players who aren't interested in system mastery. The base design of 4e is very good, but the "treadmill effect" is a noted problem and the complexity of combat can distract from the other elements of the game, too. The discrepancy between classes (e.g., Martial is fairly dominant, IMX) is storied and extensive. Savage Worlds is simple and straightforward, but the system is built to emphasize pulpy campaigns and fast play, and there's a small math problem with exploding dice and successes. Namely, a target number of 8 (a double success) is easier to roll on an exploding d6 (13.9%) than a d8 (12.5%). The solution is as simple as substracting 1 from any die that has exploded at least once, but that's fiddley and nobody is ever going to do it because simplicity is the name of the game. Also the deck-of-cards-based initiative, while fantastic for Deadlands, is just cumbersome for a generic system. Conan 2d20 is simple, but the round robin initiative combined with complication/doom/momentum/expertise/focus system seems to be built for the players to abuse. If you want the PCs to feel powerful and capable it's great, but that may not be the best system otherwise. The books are horribly arranged, too, and the rules in general are poorly explained. If there's one game that desperately needs a revised edition -- especially with magic -- it's Modiphius Conan 2d20. Most Star Wars TTRPGs (especially d20 and SAGA) are fairly balanced... except that Jedi are almost always absurdly OP especially as you progress. And if you're not playing a Jedi, it kind of makes you question, "why am I playing Star Wars?" Fate is a great game, but it requires players that want to have control over the narrative more directly, and that like the idea of Fate's collaborative character creation and campaign. I don't remember if you can even create characters later on after the fact, which is kind of a big flaw. Dice pool RPGs (WEG d6, Shadowrun, Storytelling) are a lot of fun to roll, but a huge pain in the butt to manage and easy to make mistakes with. The Storytelling system in particular seemed to really highlight how awkward the system was because the only reason to play the game was the amazing lore. The fact that the game died after they "reset" the lore is a big sign of a fatally flawed game system. 5e D&D is simple (for D&D) and works fairly well, but it's not always very deep in spite of it's quantity of rules. Some of the design decisions (i.e., weak encounter difficulty due to short rest system) lead to sometimes questionable outcomes as well, and there's a few uneven spots where designs just don't work all that well (Beastmaster, polymorph, stealth). A focus on pre-published encounters that all play similarly (epic storyline covering entire campaign) can lead to samey-ness if you lack DMs that want to express their own creativity. If you're looking for a perfect TTRPG, then I'm sure it doesn't exist. Like everything else, it's about tradeoffs. That's why your groups should play different games all the time. [/QUOTE]
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