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<blockquote data-quote="dave2008" data-source="post: 8261216" data-attributes="member: 83242">Almost all of the meet the whole guidelines as does Orucs (which I explained in my follow uo)Got itI used to think that way.&nbsp; Now I just except that CR 20 is not &quot;truly epic&quot; and everything works great for me. It is the same idea, just looking at it from a different perspective.&nbsp; If we accept that CR 20 is not epic, divorce it from player level, then everything falls into place.I personally think so (because I like tough monsters), however it is party dependent. The MM monsters work pretty darn well for my current group, but they didn't work as well for another group once the hit level 5+See my response.&nbsp; You don't seem to be using the whole monster design guidelines in your evaluation.&nbsp; Orcus may not feel like a CR 26 monster to you, but he is per the whole guidelines. You can't just look at the table. That is not how it is supposed to be used.&nbsp; That is the mistake most people make when comparing the MM to the DMG.That is fine, but it is in the guidelines regardless of whether or not you want to do it.&nbsp; If you want to follow the DMG guidelines you should factor them in.&nbsp; If you don't like the result, just make the monster a higher CR.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="dave2008, post: 8261216, member: 83242"] Almost all of the meet the whole guidelines as does Orucs (which I explained in my follow uo) Got it I used to think that way. Now I just except that CR 20 is not "truly epic" and everything works great for me. It is the same idea, just looking at it from a different perspective. If we accept that CR 20 is not epic, divorce it from player level, then everything falls into place. I personally think so (because I like tough monsters), however it is party dependent. The MM monsters work pretty darn well for my current group, but they didn't work as well for another group once the hit level 5+ See my response. You don't seem to be using the whole monster design guidelines in your evaluation. Orcus may not feel like a CR 26 monster to you, but he is per the whole guidelines. You can't just look at the table. That is not how it is supposed to be used. That is the mistake most people make when comparing the MM to the DMG. That is fine, but it is in the guidelines regardless of whether or not you want to do it. If you want to follow the DMG guidelines you should factor them in. If you don't like the result, just make the monster a higher CR. [/QUOTE]

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