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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tzarevitch" data-source="post: 3584599" data-attributes="member: 1792">In the sense that any bonus at all does increase your chance, then yes. However it is still unlikely you will spot anything with any real skill at hiding unless you have actual ranks of spot to back it up. By 5th level, a halfling rogue can easily be at +15 to hide and +13 to move silently with no gear at all. With a bit of mundane gear he can be at +17/+15. With low-grade magic (+5 skill bonus) he can be at +20/+18. +2/+2 spot/listen leaves you little better than a shot in the dark unless you have ranks and or gear. That also assumes good lighting and good sightlines. Higher CR stealth creatures will blow away your +2. It simply is not that good past low levels. 1. How exactly do you tell if the guy standing there in normal clothing is a wizard wearing bracers or a rogue wearing bracers or a monk in bracers? Until he casts a spell or sneak attacks you they look the same. If the cleric wears heavy armor, carries an axe and doesn't openly display a holy symbol he looks just like a fighter until he casts a spell or something. 2. You can get improved initiative as a wizard but many do not. The feat is of limited use to anyone who does not need to use sneak attack. Initiative is cyclical. Going first really greatly matters a lot only to sneak-attack classes because of the flat-footed window. Most foes do not have that high a dex so loosing it doesn't amount to much except for the sneak attack issue.  True, you can't win all the time with guessing a defense that is why HP is the most universal defense. When all else fails, you take the damage on your hp and hope. They only exception to this are auto-disable effects. Most of these however come with a save. These are almost always fort or will saves. The elf is at least immune to some will saves and resistant to others. Against fort saves (the most common type thanks to poisons) the elf is in trouble compared to everyone else. You don't want to compare to the dwarf, how about the halfling or is that broken too? Halfling wizars vs. elf wizard:HP: Halfling wins. +1 hp/lvl over the elf. Nuff said.Fort saves: +2 net over the elf. +1 racial, +1 from non-deficit con. Reflex saves: +1 over the elf due to the racial bonus. Both have the same reflex bonus. Will saves: Elf wins. Immunity to a few of these +2 resistance to others. Halfling gets +1 with +2 more to fear. The halfling beats the elf only when it comes to fear attacks and only by +1. AC: Halfling wins: Same dex bonus, halfling adds +1 size. Spellcasting: Same, no benefits help or hinder. Movement: Halfling looses until magical flight is available. Strength: Not normally of much issue for wizards but this is about even unless the wizard is meleeing. The halfling's net -2 to str is counterbalanced by the fact that small-sized gear weighs only 3/4 (or was it 2/3) of size M gear. When it comes to raw carrying capacity the halfling will have similar and sometimes greater spare capacity to carry unless he is carrying non-size dependent gear. Misc: Secret door detection is a big benefit for the elf because it is an auto-roll woth a racial +2. The chance is still small but at least the elf gets an auto-roll. The elf's general spot and listen bonuses are also a bit better than the halflings. The halfling  is however significantly stealthier in every way.The halfling's bonus with slings and thrown weapon is actually better than the elf's free proficiencies as they improve hit capability, particularly with weapons that the halfling wizard is likely to use. When the spells run out the halfling wizard is +2 more likely to hit with his slings, spears or thrown daggers that the elf is with anything he cares to use. You can shoot and move with a crossbow too (or a sling too for that matter). You cannot however move and shoot and reload in the same round. That is the difference between a bow and crossbow. For most purposes, without a bonus strength, the crossbow is better than the bow until you have the ability to fire a second shot (BAB of +6 or greater or rapid shot).  Who else would you be using it against? Things that don't hide well generally don't try to hide. Hunting cats hide and ambush because they are specialized at it. Wolf packs don't hide. Any hiding they do is incidental and they don't care if you spot them. I can prove that logically untrue easily. Dwarves make weak sorcerers and bards. They are not more powerful at these classes than everything else. Their con bonus is a plus but their cha deficit is a big minus to the very thing that sorcerers need to do most - cast spells. They have fewer spells AND a weaker punch. For bards they are even worse becaust the Cha penalty also hits skills that the bard most. Their save bonuses are a plus but their their racial armor ability (their most powerful ability) is useless. Dwarves also make weak shugenja, hexblades and wilders. Dwarves also make questionable monks. For monks, speed is one of their greatest assets and being a dwarf shoots you in the foot to the tune of 10'. Again your best ability (heavy armor movement rate) is useless here as monks in heavy armor loose almost all of their monk abilities just from wearing the armor. The con and saves are also bonuses for a dwarf monk but everything else is a wash at best. What dwarves ARE better at than everyone else is being a heavy fighter-type in heavy armor because they are the only race that does not loose movement due to the armor AND can also mitigate the weight/encumberance issue of the heavy armor. Due to a poor ruling on WotC's part dwarves also make some of the best barbarians out there (I think this was a bad ruling and a poor reading of the rules) matched only by a warforged. This is a function of WotC's ruling not the dwarf racial trait. Wizards to not know what it is worth. That is a function of the appraise skill which wizards don't have. As I said above, the statement is logically incorrect and overbroad. They are not better than everyone else. They are simply better at certain classes than other races are at those classes. Halflings and gnomes are very  powerful at at a number of classes (stealth classes and spellcasting classes). Elves, half-elves and half-orcs are generally rather weak. That I do agree with. Mixed agreement on this one. Favored class does not mean that they should be the best at it but it has come to be the class the race is very good at. Not necessarily the best of all possiblities, but at least very good. Elves are one of the few races whose abilities do not support their favored class much at all. I disagree with the original poster that elves are bad wizards, but they certainly aren't particularly good ones either. Their attribute bonus does not particularly support being wizards. Their racial skill bonuses don't support wizarding either and in fact aren't even in class for wizards, leaving them useless beyond low levels. (Shouldn't they get bonuses to Knowledges to reflect their long lives?) The other abilities are also simply unsupported by the wizard class. Truthfully, elves are unique with this problem. Every other PHB race has abilities that support its favored class. Elves simply do not. This does not make them lousy wizards. Truthfully, none of the PHB races make great wizards although humans and gnomes both make more potent wizards. (Human bonus skills and feats can be directly used to take skills and feats that help your class. Gnomes gain bonus spell-likes freeing up slots that would normally be used for these spells, a +2 to Alchemy and +1 to illusions). TzarevitchTzarvitch</blockquote>

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