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<blockquote data-quote="Particle_Man" data-source="post: 4309166" data-attributes="member: 892">btw, the demigod epic choice can bump up the wis of the dwarf or elf wizard to 30, for that extra 5% penalty.&nbsp; You can also buy an extra round if a Deadly Trickster makes a solo's save into a 1, after a successful save.Also, I believe that RAI the monster would have to succeed on a saving throw vs. the specific effect that is being &quot;orbed&quot;.&nbsp; It wouldbe silly for a high fort, low will monster to be more likely to throw off a sleep effect because someone cast Fire Shroud on it.&nbsp; So I would rule that a creature making a save vs. Slow does not negate the penalty for saving vs. being unconscious.&nbsp; But on the other hand, the penalty only applies if the creature *gets* unconscious.Got it.&nbsp; The Deadly Trickster friend makes the critter fail the save vs. slow (&quot;you rolled a 1, dude&quot;).&nbsp; Then the Demigod Orb wielding Wizard applies the penalty to Sleep, and shuts the monster down, unless the creature is a solo, in which case he probably shuts the monsters down (20% chance of recovery).&nbsp; Of course, some creatures are immune to sleep.Mind you, you can also do this at high levels with Legion's Hold.&nbsp; Stunned isn't as good as Unconscious, but is pretty much a fight-winner.Back to low-levels.&nbsp; Well, the orb + sleep trick could buy the party an extra round or two.&nbsp; If the creature doesn't go unconscious, you can use the orb on an at will.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Particle_Man, post: 4309166, member: 892"] btw, the demigod epic choice can bump up the wis of the dwarf or elf wizard to 30, for that extra 5% penalty. You can also buy an extra round if a Deadly Trickster makes a solo's save into a 1, after a successful save. Also, I believe that RAI the monster would have to succeed on a saving throw vs. the specific effect that is being "orbed". It would be silly for a high fort, low will monster to be more likely to throw off a sleep effect because someone cast Fire Shroud on it. So I would rule that a creature making a save vs. Slow does not negate the penalty for saving vs. being unconscious. But on the other hand, the penalty only applies if the creature *gets* unconscious. Got it. The Deadly Trickster friend makes the critter fail the save vs. slow ("you rolled a 1, dude"). Then the Demigod Orb wielding Wizard applies the penalty to Sleep, and shuts the monster down, unless the creature is a solo, in which case he probably shuts the monsters down (20% chance of recovery). Of course, some creatures are immune to sleep. Mind you, you can also do this at high levels with Legion's Hold. Stunned isn't as good as Unconscious, but is pretty much a fight-winner. Back to low-levels. Well, the orb + sleep trick could buy the party an extra round or two. If the creature doesn't go unconscious, you can use the orb on an at will. [/QUOTE]

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